Former atheist and Swedish physicist Krister Renard dismissed God at a young age, believing science was the key to understanding reality. In his pursuit of knowledge, he came to see that the universe demanded a greater explanation, eventually believing in God.
Krister’s Website: www.gluefox.com
Resources Mentioned by Krister:
- C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity
Episode Transcript
Krister Renard
00:03 – 00:54
So after two years I had read through all the Bible and then I had my conclusion was that I thought this was true. I had thought the Bible would be full of contradictions and crazy stuff and everything, but everything I read was really gave me an understanding of the world, of human nature. And I had read many, many books about politics, Das Kapital by Marx and everything. But they didn’t give me the same feeling. They gave me just the feeling these are human thoughts, which are, by the way, not true either. But when I read the Bible, I experienced it as it was God who spoke to me very strongly. So then I decided to become a Christian.
Jana Harmon
00:57 – 03:23
Welcome and thanks for tuning in to eX-skeptic. I’m your host Jana Harmon, and her on this podcast we explore remarkable stories of transformation from atheism or skepticism to belief in Christianity. Each episode we bring you the journey of someone who once rejected the faith, only to embrace it against all odds. If you’re new here, we’d love to connect with you. Beyond our podcast, you can find even more inspiring stories and sign up for our monthly email email updates at our website eX-skeptic.org and don’t forget to check out our YouTube channel where we share these powerful stories in video format. We’d love to hear your thoughts. Feel free to leave comments or reach out to us directly at info@exskeptic.org. Your feedback and ideas are always welcome. Many assume that belief in God is simply a product of where they were raised, of their cultural upbringing. But what about those who grew up in a secularized or atheistic world? Do atheists change their beliefs? And if so, what drives such a profound shift? Was it social influence or the pursuit of truth or something else? In today’s episode, we’re diving into the story of Swedish physicist Krister Renard. Raised in a secularized country where atheism was the norm, Krister relied on reason, evidence, and logic, holding science as the ultimate source of knowledge. But over time, his perspective radically changed. For decades now, Krister has argued that God is not only the best explanation for the foundations of science and reality, but also for understanding life’s most challenging questions, including suffering and pain. How did someone so deeply rooted in atheism make such a dramatic shift? What role did truth, beauty, and the vastness of the universe play in his journey? And how did he come to see that science and faith are not opposing forces, but complementary paths to understanding life’s biggest questions? I invite you to join me as we listen to Krister’s compelling story of transformation. His journey is not only about finding answers. It’s about finding a deeper sense of purpose and meaning in the world we all share. Welcome to eX-skeptic Krister, it’s so great to have you with me today.
Krister Renard
03:23 – 03:25
Thank you very much.
Jana Harmon
03:25 – 03:35
As we’re getting started, Krister, would you give us a little bit of information, an introduction to who you are, perhaps where you live and the kind of work that you have done in your career?
Krister Renard
03:35 – 04:51
Yes, okay. Well, I was born a long time ago, 1942, and I grew up in Stockholm. And in those days Sweden was a little bit backwards perhaps. When I was 12 around I decided that there is no God because my reasoning was that if God is almighty and good, he would have the power to stop all evil and make the world good by force, so to speak. I didn’t of course, understand then that the problem is much wider than that, but that’s what was how I reasoned. So therefore I dismissed God, because if he was not almighty, he couldn’t be the Creator. And then why should I believe in a weak God? And if he was almighty, then he permitted evil and then he must be evil himself. And I didn’t like an evil God. So I became an atheist in young years. And Sweden already in those years was rather atheistic country.
Jana Harmon
04:51 – 05:12
As you were growing up, you decided at age 12 that there was no God, that perhaps that there couldn’t be a good or powerful God if evil existed. I’m wondering, as at 12, of course, that’s fairly young. As a young man, did your family have any faith or religion?
Krister Renard
05:13 – 06:20
Well, I grew up with my grandparents mostly, and my grandfather, he went to church every Sunday and he used to bring me there. And of course, when I was maybe seven years old, six or seven years old. And then I probably believed in God. I don’t really remember, but I didn’t deny him anyhow. But I think it was around 12 when I maybe I had read something or there were a lot of atheistic debates going on in Sweden. We had a professor, he wrote a book, the title was Faith and Science and he was an atheist and he tried to prove that there is no God. And that book – even many Christians left their faith when they had read that book. So it was a very damaging book. And his arguments are, in my opinion today, very, very weak. So it’s impossible to understand how a Christian can leave his faith because of that book. But that is the way it was.
Jana Harmon
06:20 – 06:24
So you grew up with your grandparents who had some kind of expressed faith.
Krister Renard
06:24 – 06:40
When I was 8, my grandfather died. He died a believer, I’m sure. And my uncle, he was an expressed atheist, almost, you could say, an aggressive atheist.
Jana Harmon
06:40 – 06:49
So by the time that you were 12 and you rejected the idea of God, that was something that was comfortable even in your own home, a way of thinking.
Krister Renard
06:50 – 07:24
Yes, but maybe I was influenced by something I had heard or read, etc. So. But I remember that very well when I had those thoughts about God’s almightiness and his whether he was evil or good. But the Bible says I knew that, of course, that the Bible says he is almighty and he is also good. And I didn’t, couldn’t understand how that could be. And that was why I dismissed Christianity. And of course that is for many people a problem.
Jana Harmon
07:24 – 07:40
It’s a huge problem for many people who can’t understand how there could be a good and powerful God and yet see all of the suffering in the world. And of course you had experienced some of that personally as well, I guess, losing your grandfather, for one, you know.
Krister Renard
07:40 – 07:41
Yes, yes, oh yes.
Jana Harmon
07:41 – 08:03
So it wasn’t just a logical refutation, it was something that you felt personally in some ways. So you were a young man of 12 years old and you were also in a school, I presume. If Sweden was expressly atheistic, what did they teach in school?
Krister Renard
08:04 – 08:43
Well, when I went in junior high school, the change came when I entered high school, but before that we had a subject at school which title was Christianity, but of course Christianity included all religions. It was not only Christianity, but most of the time was used for dealing with Christianity. But then they changed the name to, I think history of religion is the name now. So now of course it’s totally neutral.
Jana Harmon
08:44 – 09:09
So during school you had some limited exposure to what they called Christianity, but it was really an amalgamation of religious belief. So you weren’t convinced by anything that you were hearing in school and you had an expressed interest in the sciences and technology. What were you learning in that regard? And did it have any relationship to your understanding of who God was or not?
Krister Renard
09:10 – 09:58
Well, I was interested in physics and mathematics and technology, like I think a lot of boys are. And I didn’t really think about religion anymore because I had dismissed it. So it was not something I dealt with actively. It was just something that were buried very deep. But when I went to junior high school, for instance in that subject, Christianity, I had the highest grade every year in that. So I was interested in those questions, but I didn’t believe I was a God. I mean, you can be interested in religion without being a believer.
Jana Harmon
09:59 – 09:59
Yes.
Krister Renard
10:00 – 10:21
So. And A lot of people I think I know today, a lot of friends I have who are not believers, but they think that all those stories in the Bible, they are fantastic in their minds they’re just fairy tales or really fiction, fictional accounts of some sort.
Jana Harmon
10:21 – 10:22
Just good story.
Krister Renard
10:23 – 10:53
Yeah, but I think not only because I mean they know that the Old Testament is also the history of the Jews. So I think that they believe that a lot of those things happened, really happened. And of course, yes, if you are an atheist, you must find an atheistic explanation. Otherwise you have to leave your atheism and become a believer. So to be able to keep your unfaith, you must explain away everything.
Jana Harmon
10:54 – 11:27
Yes. So as you were growing up and you were becoming more interested in sciences and maths and technology and evidently, I mean, you were scoring well in, in your religious study class and you had those questions. So was there some respect in some way for religion and Christianity but if you didn’t believe God existed, what did you think religion and Christianity was? Or how did you perceive religious believers?
Krister Renard
11:28 – 13:08
Well, I perceived them that they believed. I mean, I didn’t judge them in any way. They had other opinion than I. When I went to high school, there was a Christian group there and we had a lot of discussions about faith. And I remember that because my belief was that if there is a God, if the Christianity is true, you must accept Christianity to 100%. You cannot deny the miracles because if you try to deny the miracles in the Bible, there is nothing left. Because if Jesus didn’t, if he only died and then stay died, there would be no Christianity, no salvation, nothing. But I have met and even in that group, I remember I asked them, for instance, do you really believe that Jesus walked on the water? And I said no, of course not, that science has proved that that is impossible. But people in those days were so superstitious, so they believed anything. And I remember if they tried to win me by that way of argumenting, they had really erred because that turned me off really, because how I thought about it was that it was kind of a betrayal of what they believed in other you must believe or you not believe, but you can’t be in between there. And that was how I saw it, even as an atheist.
Jana Harmon
13:08 – 13:37
Well, you know, that really is quite an interesting insight and perspective because so many, I mean this is probably a conversation for another day, but so many people try to compromise or water down Christianity thinking it will be more palpable to the unbeliever or the non-believer, but in your perspective as an atheist, you thought, okay, you’re just totally compromising yourself. It’s either true or it’s not. But don’t give me something watered down in between.
Krister Renard
13:37 – 14:11
Exactly, exactly. And had they said to me, yes, we believe that Jesus walked on the water because a God who has created the universe from nothing, wouldn’t he be able to make exceptions from natural law? That is inconsequential. Maybe I would have been become Christian already at that moment. So they turned me off. They tried to try to make it easy for me to become a Christian and instead the effect was the opposite.
Jana Harmon
14:12 – 14:56
Interesting. Wow. No, that’s very perceptive and very telling and. And I hope there are many who really hear that and understand it, because I think there’s so many well intended Christians who think by making it a softer kind of truth or gospel that they will attract others. But actually what they’re doing is they’re pushing people away. So you grew up as a young man interested in science and technology and math, and it sounds like you moved in that direction. Tell me, then, what did you end up doing after high school?
Krister Renard
14:56 – 20:20
Well, after high school I had my military service for one year and a half. I think it was also military police. And that was an interesting experience. And when I had done that, I wanted to have adventures. So I did a lot of things. I worked on ships for a short while and then I started working as teacher. Because in those days in Sweden there were a lack of teachers and I had my high school exam was the highest level of mathematics, so I could get a job even without an exam as a teacher. I could get a job in any school in those days. So I worked as a teacher for some years and I liked a lot of teaching and I have done that a lot in my life. So that was very interesting. And then I did things, climbed in mountains, jumped parachute, everything you can do for adventures. But as I used to say that at 25, I mean, when I was 18, I was a young man with a promising future before me, but when I was 25, I was a young man with a promising future behind me, because if you want to make a career, you must start study directly after high school. But I was so tempted by adventures and girls and everything. So then I started to become a radio officer on ships, because that is better than working in the kitchen as I did, or the galley in the beginning. So, I read myself to the exam for a radio officer studying myself. So then I was for about two years on ships and working as a radio officer and went all over the world. And then when I came home, I was, I think, 29. Then I started to study mathematics and physics for a lot of years but the interesting thing was that I had thought that when I studied mathematics and got into the depth of mathematics and physics, I would understand more. But in reality, I understand less and less. There was someone who studied quantum physics and he thought it was very difficult to understand. And then he studied a higher course, a very abstract course in quantum physics. And afterwards he said, well, I am even more confused now. But on a higher level, yes. And actually the more you go into things, the more complicated they are. You understand less but you also feel that you understand less. But of course, you understand more and more. But it’s a frustration because for everything you understand, you will find 10 new things you don’t understand. And when you have understood them, you will have 10 new things. So it never ends, almost because it’s so enormously complicated. But when I studied physics and came up on graduate courses, I started to study elementary particle physics. And I found that the laws of elementary particle physics, they were like, this can’t be just randomness. A chaotic system can’t have so beautiful laws. And I remember I had a really religious experience, although God maybe was involved, but not in my consciousness. And because I studied proof in particle physics. It’s a method that is called group representation theory. It’s very abstract and complicated, and this proof was so beautiful. So I started to weep of the beauty of it. And I almost, I sensed a feeling of almost a religious feeling that this was so fantastic. So actually, science, it was science that drove me to God, because I realized by that that there must be something behind everything. And that was the same for Einstein’s. I mean, he never became a Christian, as far as I know, but he always believed that there was an intelligence, a superior intelligence behind the universe, because this fantastic universe cannot be just randomness.
Jana Harmon
20:22 – 22:16
I’d like to take a moment and ask you something. Do you have big questions about God, the Bible, and the world we live in today? CS Lewis, renowned for using both reason and imagination, addressed some of the most profound questions of his time. Following in his footsteps, the C.S. lewis Institute has created a series of concise articles called Challenging Questions, designed to tackle today’s most pressing topics. Recent articles explore questions like why would God allow natural disasters? What scientific proof do we have that there’s a God? Has the Bible been corrupted as some claim? Isn’t Jesus just like all other religious leaders? Though not exhaustive, these concise articles focus on the heart of every issue. Each month a new question is explored by a leading scholar, faith leader or a thought influencer. Our aim is to provide thought provoking insights that inspire you to delve deeper into your own journey. To explore these valuable articles, visit the C.S. lewis Institute website at CSLewisInstitute.org, simply navigate to the resources tab. Select publications and look for challenging questions. We invite you to take a look and engage with these insightful articles. Now back to our story. Right, so did you start then after that almost encounter with the majesty of the universe, the complexity and the beauty? Did you start to question your materialistic understanding of the world, that matter is all there is? Or did you have a trouble explaining where the laws of nature came from? Or did any of those questions arise in your mind?
Krister Renard
22:17 – 22:47
Well, not right then for me. I experienced it as a kind of feeling of beauty. I wasn’t aware then that it might have been a supernatural feeling, but afterwards I have of course thought of that. So I became from being an atheist, I became an agnostic.
Jana Harmon
22:48 – 22:48
Okay.
Krister Renard
22:49 – 23:14
And I realized that I don’t know if there is a God or not. And I mean, of course, this is like C. S. Lewis, he was an amazing man. I remember he even said that when he was an atheist he was angry on God because God didn’t exist. That’s quite interesting.
Jana Harmon
23:14 – 23:16
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Krister Renard
23:17 – 26:16
So I became an agnostic, but open minded. And C.S. Lewis, he talks about how God can use suffering like a megaphone. I mean, when we are happy in everything, we are not open to God if we are not already Christians, of course, but an atheist that is happy is not searching for God. So sometimes God doesn’t send suffering, but he can use suffering because then people will listen. And that was what happened to me because that was in 1975 and first one of my best friends committed suicide. Then my best friend was killed in an accident and a girl who I knew very well was sex murdered in a very brutal way. And that was, I mean, quite tough for me. And that was the reason why I stopped my studies because I got an offering of being coming a teacher at the Merchant Marine Academy in Stockholm for teaching radio technology and similar subjects. So I switched there, but it was a difficult time for me. And then I came in contact with the Christian man in my own age and we had a good discussion. And then he said that I ought to read the Bible to know what I’m denying. He said, I don’t know exactly, but how do you know that Christianity is false if you haven’t read the Bible? So I said, okay, I will read the Bible. So we met maybe once a week, once every second week, and I read the Bible from page one and then we talked about what I had read. Sometimes he could explain things I didn’t understand. Sometimes he didn’t understand either. So after two years, I read through all the Bible and then I had my conclusion was that I thought this was true. I had thought the Bible would be full of contradictions and crazy stuff and everything, but everything I read was. Really gave me an understanding of the world, of the human nature. And I had read many, many books about politics, Das Kapital by Marx and everything. But they didn’t give me the same feeling. They gave me just the feeling these are human thoughts, which are, by the way, not true either. But when I read the Bible, I experienced it as it was God who spoke to me very strongly. So then I decided to become a Christian.
Jana Harmon
26:17 – 27:57
Wow, okay, so, okay, There’s a lot there. First, after this experience of realizing that perhaps there’s more than just this natural world, that there, there may be, there may be a God behind it all. There had to be some better explanation or bigger explanation that you actually had some, some kind of encounter with or had some kind of experience. So you became agnostic, open towards another perspective. These really horrible things happened in your life is a little curious to me that you would remain open, particularly since at age 12, you rejected God on the logical premise that God could not exist in the face of evil and suffering. But yet here, evil and suffering happened in your life. You didn’t turn away at that point from God. You actually became open to read the Bible. Which is curious to me. You know, of course a Christian came in your life and challenged you, how do you know whether or not it’s true? And challenged you to read the Bible. But I am impressed. I just want to say at this point, to say you didn’t shut down because of a prior logical impossibility of God. You had an experience of loss and great suffering and you saw perhaps that there’s something more in the world scientifically that you were willing to actually move forward in a way to look at what was true, rather than just dismiss God out of hand.
Krister Renard
27:58 – 28:37
My studies, graduate studies made me open for that there can be something more than material and energies. And this suffering, these losses I had 1975 made me open for, because I needed Help, so to speak. And then that God sent this Christian guy to me was he helped me, so to speak, to put me on the right track. So there were like three different factors involved here.
Jana Harmon
28:37 – 29:44
Yes, yes, absolutely. And I’m, and I’m also impressed because. You took the challenge from your friend, you know, to actually read it for yourself and that you invested time with him. You were both learning, it sounds like, and growing in your study together, which I also appreciate. It wasn’t as if he was there giving you all the answers. It was like you were actually looking at the Bible, Bible together and discussing it and moving along by side by side to really see did God exist? You know, and, and I, I’m impressed too that, that you had a presumption about what you thought the Bible was, but when you actually read it for yourself, it was something so much more and something so much different than you in had anticipated, actually enough to the point where you became convinced that it was true. Now when you say you came to a point when you believed that the Scripture was true, you’re saying miracles and all.
Krister Renard
29:45 – 32:41
Yes, of course. Because it’s quite interesting that when you read liberal theologians who dismiss miracles because they say it goes against natural law. But the physicist would never say that. The theologians who are not physicists, they are telling us physicists what is possible or not. But physical laws are about how matter behaves under normal circumstances. There is nothing that says that there can’t be exceptions from the natural law. Nothing in physics. A physicist can say I don’t believe in a miracle, but that is not because I am a physicist. That is because I don’t believe in miracles as a human being, because physics cannot prove neither the existence or the non existence of miracles. That is beyond science. Science has a limited area where it works, but outside that area, science is blind. And that is because what is science? Human beings have decided what is science during thousands of years. We have accumulated knowledge and we have learned a lot when studying nature. And we have put up rules, how should we do to get the best results out of what we call science? And we have a lot of rules, peer review, etc. Etc. Proving things, biologic postulates, etc. And that is the scientific method. But that method includes exclude all supernatural things because they cannot be studied by physics, they can’t be measured. We have no instruments that can observe God, for instance, and therefore we cannot deal with such things in science. We must exclude them because otherwise science will be very uncertain. Science must be very sure of its conclusions. But that also Means that it’s not possible to say there is no God because science cannot see God. That is, we have chosen to define science as not being able to see God. That is like a blind man should say there are no colors because I can’t see them. But there are colors, but he can’t see them. And there might be a God, but science can per definition, not see God. And therefore science cannot have to be silent about God, because science has no right to speak about God because science cannot observe or God. So science is neutral regarding God.
Jana Harmon
32:42 – 32:48
Yes, that’s a beautiful explanation, but that’s not oftentimes what you hear from atheists and culture.
Krister Renard
32:48 – 33:20
Yeah, but they are ignorant because a real physicist, even if he is an atheist, would. When I said what I said right now, he will say, I agree 100%, but he doesn’t believe anyhow. But he believes in my way of reasoning and my logical conclusions. So therefore you cannot use science to exclude God. That is a misuse of science.
Jana Harmon
33:20 – 33:49
Is it a true statement to say that there are certain realities or assumptions even that scientists must make in order to even use the scientific enterprise, the methodology of science, to presume order and rationality and predictability and just the laws of nature and explaining where those come from? Is that a difficult thing for someone who doesn’t believe in God to explain?
Krister Renard
33:50 – 34:47
I mean, there should be no problem, because whether you are a believer or not, when you work in your laboratory you do the same things. Because even a Christian scientist excludes supernatural explanations in his scientific work. Because let’s say that you want to construct a new car engine and you have a new theory which you will apply to your new engine. You cannot use miracles when you want to construct a machine that shall be used by millions of people? Because I don’t think God will make miracles with all those endings, even if he made a miracle with one Endian. So science cannot lean on miracles or supernatural things. But that doesn’t mean that you deny the existence of miracles or supernatural things.
Jana Harmon
34:47 – 34:53
Exactly. So science, there’s agency and there’s mechanism. Right? There are different kinds of explanations.
Krister Renard
34:53 – 36:14
Explanations, and exactly they complement one another. The world is so complex, so you cannot understand all aspects of the world with one theory, with one perspective. You have to use different perspectives to understand, and that is called complementarity. And you can say science answers the question how? And religion answers the question why? So they answer different questions. And religion can explain things. For instance, what is love? Science cannot explain love. It can maybe explain sexual desire and certain aspects of certain types of love, but it cannot explain the love of Mother Teresa. Why does a woman go to India and gives her life to help dying people on the streets? So, I mean, both those perspectives are needed. So even if atheism was true, it would need to be have a compliment with some other perspective because the world is so complex.
Jana Harmon
36:14 – 37:11
Hmm. So back to your story. Then you became convinced that what you were reading in the Bible was true, and that meant that God existed, that God came to earth in the form of a man, Jesus Christ. And part of Christianity, of course, is that you submit your life or give your life to this God man, Jesus, who came and worked miracles and actually gave his life for you. That it’s a very personal acknowledgement and acceptance of his work on the cross for you and for your sin and for all of the brokenness in the world. Was that taking it from an intellectual to a more personal level? Was that something easy for you to accept once you understood it intellectually, to take it on personally?
Krister Renard
37:11 – 38:32
When I became Christian, I didn’t have any spiritual experiences. It was more ontological reasons. I had read the Bible and concluded, I believe this is true, although it’s not a materialistic perspective, but I still believe it is true. But it was maybe four years later, I was in a church in Sweden and I had taken the communion and was on my way back. And suddenly there came upon me a feeling of love. It was such a strong feeling that I felt, I’m going to die now, I thought. And in the endless moment, it was maybe only second, but for me it was a long time. It was like God showed me his love, his love for me, his love for all human being and his love for the creation and what he did. So it was an immense experience. And I remember that for months afterwards, very, very, very strong. So that was my first spiritual experience.
Jana Harmon
38:32 – 38:41
It’s interesting too, because in reading your story, it sounds like you weren’t in a Pentecostal or charismatic tradition when that happened.
Krister Renard
38:41 – 38:42
No.
Jana Harmon
38:42 – 38:54
That it was unexpected. It wasn’t contrived, it wasn’t coerced. That it was something that came on obviously supernaturally that you were not expecting. Yeah, no.
Krister Renard
38:54 – 39:40
And that I think that was God knows who I am. I can be critical sometimes of myself and of other things, but in this way that I experienced this thing in a surrounding that was not experiencing it, it was only I who experienced this. So that was a strong proof for me. Because if I would have been in a Pentecostal church, I might have suspected for the rest of my life that this was just mass suggestions, but now I can’t explain it like that. It must have been a real spiritual experience I had. Because of that.
Jana Harmon
39:42 – 42:35
I’d like to pause for a moment to tell you about something you might find really quite helpful. Have you ever wanted to read the Bible? But have you ever felt unsure of where to start or what it’s really all about? At its core, the Bible is a story of God’s deep love for us. God created us to live in a close relationship with Him. But when humanity chose to turn away from his ways, that relationship was broken. Instead of leaving us in that separation. God, out of love, sent His Son Jesus to heal the divide. Jesus. Life, death and resurrection opened the way for anyone who trusts in him to experience a renewed, meaningful connection with God. In the end, God’s love will restore everything, bringing us into a perfect, everlasting relationship with Him. To truly understand this story and how all of the parts of the Bible fit together, it’s important to study the whole thing. Each part contributes to the larger story of God’s plan to bring people back to Him. Many people find it challenging to read the Bible because certain sections can feel long or difficult to understand. The C.S. Lewis Institute has a helpful Bible reading. Plan that makes it easier to navigate reading the Bible. To learn more, visit the C.S. lewis Institute website at cslewisinstitute.org you can start today. Now back to our story. And I guess coming from a place where you had been intellectually convinced that. God existed and Christianity was true, you had a basis through which you could understand that spiritual experience in a meaningful way rather than. Well, it’s interesting too, you know, that was a different kind of experience than you then. You describe in your just being overwhelmed with the majesty of creation in a sense that at that moment you realize there was something more. But you didn’t have a name or a personal God to attach to that kind of experience. But at this time, you know, you had a lot of water had gone under the bridge, you had studied, you had been intellectually convinced you had become a Christian. And so the spiritual experience made complete sense to you in light of what you then knew. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It sounds like it would be a phenomenal experience and a life changing one at that. And, and again, I love the fact that you had some grounding for that. It wasn’t. Your faith isn’t grounded on experience alone, but it’s both. Right. It’s knowing that it’s true and then experiencing it as true.
Krister Renard
42:35 – 42:43
Exactly. I think God wants both in My case I started intellectually and then I got this supernatural experience.
Jana Harmon
42:43 – 43:59
Faith is really, it’s something more than experience, it’s more than intellect. Right. It is really a fully orbed understanding of yourself, of reality, of your relationship with God, everything all together. It’s kind of like what you said again at the beginning, where there are those Christians who try to kind of reduce Christianity in a way to make it palpable. But as you said, it’s kind of an all or nothing thing. Even as C.S. lewis says, if it’s only moderately important, it’s not worth believing, but it’s really infinitely important if it’s true. He said it much better than me, of course. So for you it seems as if it’s really infinitely important. You have turned your life and spent your life since that conversion. It sounds like teaching and lecturing and writing with regard, not only to. You’ve written very at high levels with regard to science and physics, but you also write in relationship to. The relationship of science to faith and really contending for the reality of God.
Krister Renard
44:00 – 44:13
For 30 years I traveled around in Scandinavia and lecturing at universities, churches, schools, high schools, etc. About faith and science.
Jana Harmon
44:13 – 45:10
And what a gift I’m sure that has been to so many people that you’ve been able to bring clarity to that, that it’s not just science or God, but it’s actually both together. And it makes, it makes it pretty wonderful. So, Krister, if there was a skeptic who was listening, who is open like you were at one point in your life, what would you say to him in terms of how could he start to make sense of the possibility of the reality of God? Or that science actually works in tandem with God in terms of a full explanation of reality or something that you know, what would be a good step for someone to learn more? Would it be opening the Bible like you did? Or how can someone best pursue belief?
Krister Renard
45:10 – 46:17
Well, if he reads in Swedish, he could read on my homepage, I have a lot of articles about that. But I mean, he could also read mere Christianity by C.S. lewis, for instance. An excellent introduction, I think. But one important thing which has for me been very, very important. If you would ask me, why are you a Christian? My answer would be very clearly, because I believe it is true. That is the reason. And I remember I once was in a school class talking about faith and science and one of the students, when I was finished there, was questioning. They could put questions to me and he said, you try to prove that the Bible is true just because you are a Christian. And then I told him, no, it is the opposite. I am a Christian because I believe that the Bible is true. And that is a very important distinction.
Jana Harmon
46:18 – 46:25
Yes, yes, absolutely. It’s not some kind of circular reasoning because you want it to be true, right?
Krister Renard
46:25 – 46:26
No, exactly.
Jana Harmon
46:26 – 47:08
Yeah. So finally, when I think of your story and I think about the role that maybe Christians played in your story, it seems like there was that one friend that you encountered who challenged you to think about what is true. If you are a seeker of truth to read the Bible, and he actually invested time with you every week or so, reading through the Bible in a humble way together that you were both learning side by side. That is really.
Krister Renard
47:09 – 47:20
Yeah, we, of course, we became friends. Of course. And we are still friends. And although he lives in Sweden, but we used to see one another when I am in Sweden.
Jana Harmon
47:20 – 47:50
Yeah, that’s really so beautiful. Really, that kind of friendship you’ve spoken over the years and the decades, how we as Christians can command the Christian faith, whether it’s with regard to science and faith together or the grounding for God or miracles or whatever, or reading the Bible. How would you commend us as Christians to effectively engage with those who don’t believe, who are skeptical? I think, you know, you’ve lived in a skeptical world for many years. What would you recommend?
Krister Renard
47:51 – 50:12
Well, I think that not all people are open. You can only reach people who are open. But I believe that God gives every human being an opportunity when she is open and can say yes. I think the best way is that you do this by friendship, like my friend did to me, that you have a friend perhaps, who is interested and. Or you talk about things. I have found that it’s not so efficient to be very aggressive in trying to preach the gospel because then people will just shut down. But you can, when you talk to people, you can, during a discussion, come with an argument that is relevant but also points toward Christianity. So you can use opportunities. If you’re a teacher, you are not supposed to evangelize among the students normally, because that is not allowed. But when you teach in physics, you can ask questions. How could this happen? How come that mathematics is so efficient in describing the world that it even can. Can predict things? That is not actually in the mathematics itself. How is it that mathematics can describe the real physical world in such a fantastic way? Like chess, for instance. The rules of chess, they cannot say anything about the real world. But the rules are mathematics. They are invented by human beings, like the rules of chess, but they can tell us things about the real world. And the only explanation I can find here is that there must be a creator, a designer who has created a universe that is mathematical in its very foundation. And that is, for me, a very strong argument for the existence.
Jana Harmon
50:15 – 51:57
Yes. You know, it strikes me that, Krister, you have, throughout your journeying, throughout your intellectual and spiritual journeying, that you had, in a sense, eyes to see that you were curious, you have a curious mind, and that you’re a truth seeker and that you want to make sense of reality. And so that when you see something, you were open to the idea of the possibility of the need for a creator or that you can see how the pieces fit together and that you’re looking for the best explanation for reality. And it sounds like that you have found that as compared to, say, you know, we listen to atheists or staunch atheists like Lawrence Krauss or Richard Dawkins, who might admit to the majesty, almost the magic, what they call the magic of the universe, but yet they’re not willing to even grant the possibility of something grand behind that magic or that majesty. But you were. You are. And I just am so impressed with where it has led you to this very large, grand, cohesive understanding of reality. How you can now, you now have eyes to see how even mathematics, the elegance of it and the. The efficiency of it all points, you know, it comes together in a. In a whole and a coherent, that. That things make sense now because God is part of that whole understanding of reality.
Krister Renard
51:57 – 51:58
Exactly.
Jana Harmon
51:59 – 52:35
And I do appreciate that about your story, that again, that you were open, that your heart was open, and when God showed you to take a step forward or encouraged you, that you did. And then he even showed up in extraordinary ways, like that spiritual experience just surrounding you and giving that experience of really palpable love. The whole thing is just beautiful. Krister, and I’d so appreciate you coming on today to talk about your story, to tell us of your journey. Is there anything else that you want to add before we close?
Krister Renard
52:35 – 53:06
Well, you mentioned Dawkins, and I think he is, in a sense a very honest man and a real truth seeker. But his criticism of Christianity is based not on Christianity, but his own misunderstanding of Christianity. He doesn’t criticize Christianity. He criticizes his own false image of Christianity, and that is his problem.
Jana Harmon
53:07 – 54:32
Yeah, I think that’s a really great clarification there because I do think, and in my experience with former atheists and listen to so many stories, there are a lot of people out there who have misunderstandings of what Christianity is so yeah. And sometimes when they. And so they’re closed off, I guess, to even any possibility of God. But again, just to reaffirm your journey and your willingness to actually have your perhaps misunderstandings corrected, you know, to get a fuller and cleaner understanding. Like you said, you know, sometimes when you look into knowledge and science, for example, like you said, you realize how much you don’t know. But in this case, you continued. You continued to seek after truth despite the fact that in any area of life, you know, our knowledge is limited and we realize by seeking and searching, there’s so much we don’t know. But at the end of that, you found God, the One who does know all. And he’s allowed you to know him, not only intellectually, but personally. And I’m so grateful for that. I’m so, so very grateful for that. Thank you so much. Yes, yes. Thank you so much, Krister, for coming and telling your story.
Krister Renard
54:33 – 54:51
Thank you for a nice conversation and also the opportunity because as a Christian, I think it is your duty to also try to spread the good news and tell your story for people.
Jana Harmon
54:51 – 54:57
Yes, I heartily agree. So thank you so much for coming on to tell your story.
Krister Renard
54:58 – 55:00
Yeah, okay. Thank you.
Jana Harmon
55:00 – 56:09
You’re so welcome. Thanks for tuning in to Exkeptic to. Hear Christa Renard’s story. If you’d like to learn more about his work or explore his resources, be sure to check out the episode notes. We love hearing from you. For any questions, feedback or comments about this episode, feel free to reach out to me directly@infoxkeptic.org and if you’re an atheist or skeptic who’d like to connect with a former skeptic to discuss your questions, we’d love to help. You can reach us@infoxkeptic.org and we’ll get you connected. This podcast is made possible through the support of the C.S. lewis Institute and our incredible team. Our producer Ashley Decker, audio engineer Mark Rosara, ministry assistant Lori Burleson, and video editor Kyle Polk, who brings these episodes to Life on our YouTube channel. A special thanks to Jordan Harmon for our beautiful graphic design. If you enjoyed this episode, we’d be so grateful if you’d follow, rate, review and share it with your friends and on your social media. Your support helps us spread these inspiring stories around the world. In the meantime, I’ll be looking forward to seeing you next time, where we’ll hear another unlikely story of belief.
