Show Notes:
Why do people believe in God, or reject Him altogether? In this compelling episode, Dr. Jay Medenwaldt shares his intellectual and spiritual journey from atheism to belief. A social psychologist with a PhD from Baylor and a current professor at Northwestern College, Jay approached religion from a purely academic lens, interested in why people believed in things he once viewed as clearly false.
But, in an effort to avoid confirmation bias and stay true to his role as a researcher, Jay began examining both sides of the argument. To his surprise, the rational and historical case for Christianity was stronger than he expected.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Jay Medenwaldt, a former Air Force behavioral scientist with nine years of service, including teaching psychology courses at the Air Force Academy and conducting research. Dr. Medenwaldt holds a doctorate in social psychology from Baylor University, with a focus on the psychology of religion and virtue. He also earned a Master of Divinity in apologetics, ethics, and biblical studies, as well as a Master’s in psychological sciences. His research has been published in prominent journals, including The International Journal for the Psychology of Religion and Current Opinion in Psychology.
Resources Mentioned:
- The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel
- The Historical Reliability of the Gospels by Craig Blomberg
- Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig
- Concepts: Confirmation Bias, Cosmological Argument, Teleological Argument
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Episode Transcript eX-skeptic podcast
June 20, 2025 Jay Medenwaldt
00:00 – 00:11
I was perfectly content in my life and how things were going and I had promising future. I was happy in the moment, so I didn’t need it. But I was convinced by the evidence.
Jana Harmon
00:12 – 01:02
This is Jana from eX-skeptic. Do you have questions or doubts about God and faith? Maybe it’s for you it’s the pain of suffering. Maybe it’s the hypocrisy you’ve seen in the church or by people who call themselves Christians. Or maybe it’s the lingering doubts that no one seems to be willing to address, much less answer. Whatever your doubt, you’re not alone. At eX-skeptic, we feature the real stories of real people, each one different yet marked by an honest search for truth. We’ve grouped these stories into curated YouTube playlists so you can find the ones that connect with what you’re facing and the questions you’re asking. Head on over to eX-skeptic on YouTube and find our different playlists there. Be sure to subscribe and share it with someone you know who’s asking the hard questions too.
Speaker 4
01:08 – 02:39
Hello and welcome to eX-skeptic, where we hear unlikely stories of belief. I’m your host Jana Harmon, and here we dive into the stories of those who once identified as an atheist or a skeptic, but it became to believe in Christianity against all odds. These stories are of deep questioning and profound struggles with doubt, ending in transformative new perspectives on life and faith. In each episode, we not only uncover these remarkable stories, but the guests also share insights for curious skeptics who may be considering the possibility of belief. For Christians, we offer practical advice on engaging meaningfully with those who might be indifferent or resistant to faith. If you’re a curious skeptic with questions of your own, we’d love to connect with you and connect you with one of our former guests. For a personal conversation, just email us@info skeptic.org and we’ll help you take that next step. For new listeners, welcome. You can discover more of our inspiring stories and sign up for our monthly newsletter at exskeptic.org. Be sure to check out our YouTube channel where we feature over 100 powerful stories of transformation and we want to hear from you. Share your feedback, ideas and thoughts by commenting on our platforms or emailing us again, that’s info@exskeptic.org your input shapes our podcast and we’re always eager to engage with you.
Speaker 5
02:40 – 03:39
Have you ever stopped to think about why you believe what you believe, whether about God or religion or anything else? Our guest today, Dr. Jay Medenwald brings a unique perspective to this question. With a PhD in social psychology, he approaches the topic of belief through a pragmatic lens, not only examining why others adopt or reject faith, but also reflecting on his own potential biases. Once an atheist, Dr. Medenaldt saw no personal need for religion, viewing it primarily through an academic interest and lens. Committed to avoiding confirmation bias as a researcher, he maintained or tried to maintain a neutral, rational stance in his own investigations. What he discovered surprised him, leading to a paradigm shift that ultimately brought him to belief in God and Christianity. Today, he joins me to share his amazing journey.
Jana Harmon
03:40 – 03:43
Welcome to eX-skeptic, Jay, it’s so great for you to be with me today.
Jay Medenwaldt
03:44 – 03:45
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Jana Harmon
03:45 – 04:01
I would love for the listeners to hear a little bit about you as we’re getting started. Can you introduce yourself, Jay? I would love for you everyone to know your credentialing, the kind of work that you do. And actually, I think you’re a professor, so where you teach.
Jay Medenwaldt
04:01 – 05:24
Yeah, so I grew up, hockey was my life, and then played in college, and that’s where I got into psychology. And so I majored in psychology in college, and then I worked in the Air Force. I was at the Air Force Academy for college, and so I was working in the Air Force as a behavioral scientist. I had an opportunity to get a master’s degree, so the Air Force sent me to do that. So I got my master’s in psychology and then taught for a few years at the Air Force Academy. And then after that I decided I wanted to go back to school. So I got out of the Air Force and went to seminary. And then while I was there, I just was really feeling that there’d be helpful to have a voice in apologetics that focused on psychology and incorporating psychology into apologetics. I thought I’d apply to some PhD programs in psychology, and I got in and so I did my PhD at Baylor in social psychology and kind of focused on personality and psychology of religion. And then after I finished there, I got a job at Northwestern College in Iowa. And so I’m a professor at Northwestern College teaching a variety of psych courses. And it’s a small Christian liberal arts college. And so that’s what I’ve been doing now for I’m on my second year here.
Jana Harmon
05:24 – 05:53
That’s terrific. I’m impressed with your credentialing and your resume, and I’m especially intrigued with the social psychological part of religion. And you said you combined that with apologetics. Perhaps we’ll get into that through your story later. Tell me where you grew up, talk with me about your home life. Was God or church or religion, any part of your family rhythm? Introduce us there.
Jay Medenwaldt
05:54 – 07:14
So I grew up in Minnesota. Both my grandparents lived less than a mile away. And so we went to church, as far as I can remember, pretty much every week because we went with my grandparents. My mom’s parents were really religious, and so we went with them every week. And then they moved away. And so then we mostly stopped going to church because they moved to Florida. And so next few years went on and off, and then we moved out of the suburb or into the suburbs, and then went even less after that. And then about a year later, my dad died and we completely stopped going after that. My mom blamed God for it, and so we stopped going. I was almost 10 when my dad died. And so for the next few years I kind of wrote prayers and stuff I did when I was younger, but that was it. And then just kind of felt like it didn’t matter and then wasn’t real. And so there was no reason to believe. And it seemed kind of stupid. And so, you know, young me, it seemed like a very big burden to pray. I didn’t understand kind of the deeper reasons for it. And so I kind of decided I quit believing completely.
Jana Harmon
07:14 – 07:30
I see, I see. So when you were growing up, even as a child, you were going to church every once in a while or with your grandparents or whatnot. Was there any felt belief or faith? Or did you even pray as a child? Or was it just something you did with your family from time to time?
Jay Medenwaldt
07:30 – 08:03
I mean, I remembered praying before bed with my family and that was kind of about it. We didn’t, we didn’t pray before meals. We didn’t make religious belief. It wasn’t a big part of our life. It was kind of like we have to go to church because we don’t want to upset the grandparents and kind of we say our prayers and that’s about it before bed. And that was really about it. And I was pretty young, so maybe I’m remembering wrong, but I’ve had these conversations. The family after that, it kind of seems to be what it was like.
Jana Harmon
08:03 – 08:47
As you were getting a little bit older, it sounds like you and your family drifted away and for good reason. But I want to pause for a moment at when you were 10 and your father passed away and your mother then couldn’t believe that God existed, allowing your father to die, essentially, that’s a huge question. And I would imagine that it affected you deeply. How did your perception of God, whatever that was, change at that point in your life, having watched it affect your mother’s faith and just your lives generally?
Jay Medenwaldt
08:47 – 09:26
I don’t know if I really thought much about it in terms of my view of God or whether God allowed it to happen or anything. My dad was pretty abusive. So I remember I was actually, I wouldn’t say excited that he died, but I was, you know, it was probably more positive than negative. And really kind of my biggest fear was that we wouldn’t have money to pay for me to play hockey anymore. Because really that was my life. It was all about hockey, even at that age. And so that was a little bit of my concern. But other than that, like, I didn’t get much to it. I was just kind of thankful that the abuse would stop and that was it.
Jana Harmon
09:26 – 10:08
Goodness. Okay, I am sorry, first of all, that you experienced some abuse in your home. And I can understand how that would be relieving, actually, when that abuse left your home and how you wouldn’t feel grief at that kind of a loss. Sometimes. Obviously it can. Your view of your father can affect your view of God, but it seems to me in your story that that didn’t seem to have any particular relationship to your belief for or against God at that point.
Jay Medenwaldt
10:09 – 10:21
At that point, like, I guess God was such an afterthought anyway. Like, even when we went to church, you know, the Easter and Christmas, like, it wasn’t, it was just going through kind of motions.
Jana Harmon
10:23 – 10:46
So then your family stopped going at the point of your father’s death and then you just drifted away. And then you began to consider that you didn’t believe in God and that it was rather stupid. Now, what brought you to those conclusions? And how old were you when you, when you would have considered yourself an atheist I presume?
Jay Medenwaldt
10:47 – 11:25
I guess I stopped believing. I was 12. It was a way out of friends. And while my mom was out doing some things with friends for a weekend, and so I was staying at a teammate’s house and there’s things like, I don’t need it. This doesn’t serve any purpose. And, you know, other than that, I don’t remember all the details on that. It just kind of seemed like nothing will happen. And if I don’t pray before bed or stop believing, I don’t think anything will happen. And nothing did. I wasn’t struck by lightning or anything like that. So everything just kept on going. The way it was. And so I was like, yeah, I guess I don’t need this after all.
Jana Harmon
11:26 – 11:50
It sounds like somewhat irrelevant to life, that it had no meaning for you there or I presume that you just thought again, you characterized people who believed as that was somewhat stupid. So what did you think Christianity was or religious belief at that time? Did you think it was for those who were weak or ignorant or not very bright?
Jay Medenwaldt
11:51 – 12:12
I don’t know if I had those complex thoughts at that point. I remember. It was a common thing that I remember around that age. Teammates of mine would occasionally miss practices for catechism or confirmation classes. And that was something that just kind of seemed like a big waste of time to me. But, you know, that was kind of about it.
Jana Harmon
12:13 – 12:41
So your life was elsewhere in hockey, in sports, in athletics. So that was, I presume, again, your growing up years. It was just irrelevant to your life. You went on without any kind of belief at all. So walk us on from there. Did you continue to work? Walk farther and farther away from any kind of potential belief or possibility in God or what did. What did your life look like?
Jay Medenwaldt
12:41 – 13:24
Throughout my teen years, it was really not much of a thought at all. It’s not something I concerned myself with. I didn’t necessarily think anything for or against it. Maybe sometimes we’d like to make fun of occasional Christians or things for kind of their irrational beliefs or kind of legalistic beliefs like my grandparents were when they’d come to visit. And I wouldn’t make fun of my grandparents. And so just some of the hypocrisy I saw being kind of skeptical of the way that money was used and just kind of viewing it as kind of power play just to. To get power or to get people’s money. But mostly it was not something I really thought about much at all.
Jana Harmon
13:24 – 13:45
It just wasn’t anything that you had really much thought about. It sounds like you were just living your life and then you went into college or to the Air Force or to the academy. So what was that experience like? And how did that affect your life and your views?
Jay Medenwaldt
13:45 – 15:08
I finished high school when I was 16 and then worked for the next couple years and also played hockey. I was playing a level called junior hockey. It’s typically kind of like between high school and college. It’s where a lot of colleges recruit from. So I was doing that for the next four years. So that’s where I met my wife. And so we met shortly before I left for College. I was 20. I was playing in Texas. Met her, she was finishing up college, and then she was a believer. But I really had no concern for believing myself. Like, I occasionally went to church with her, things like that. But for the first year of college, she didn’t move up there. That was in Colorado Springs. She was still in Texas. So I didn’t have any need to go to church. During basic training, I did go to church a few times just because it got me out of stuff. And so that’s kind of where I wasn’t really, I would say at that point, not like a hard atheist, but kind of walking the line between atheism and deism. Like, sometimes I was like, kind of felt like maybe there’s some sort of God that exists, but, you know, God just wants us to be good and that’s it. But other times I’d be like, no, it kind of seems unrealistic. So I was kind of wavering on that line.
Jana Harmon
15:08 – 15:26
So when you met your wife and she was a Christian, would you say that she was a fairly serious follower of Christ? You said that she went to church. You would go with her on occasion. What did her life look like in terms of her own spiritual walk?
Jay Medenwaldt
15:28 – 16:05
Yeah, so it’s definitely something I knew about her and I was aware. So she, it was important to her, she went to church, the way she treated people. She’s very kind and respectful, and maybe that’s part of her personality. But I think, you know, knowing her now for 20 plus years, and it comes from, you know, both her personality and her faith. And so, you know, it was her personality that really drew me to her. And, you know, the faith part was maybe gave me a little bit of comfort because I felt like maybe there was an extra level of trust that I could have with her.
Jana Harmon
16:05 – 16:17
So it didn’t bother you that she believed in a God that you didn’t believe existed? It was okay because it made her the person that she was, I presume.
Jay Medenwaldt
16:17 – 16:39
You know, I felt like because she took her faith seriously and she wasn’t hypocritical, legalistic, that it was more of a positive than a negative. Because I felt like, again, I would be able to trust her more or there’d be less likely that she would have an affair or lie or anything like that.
Jana Harmon
16:39 – 17:16
So it informed her moral sensibility, her choices because she was faithful to God and to her faith, I guess. And so you married, you said, and you were moving along, and you also mentioned that you were wavering between atheism and deism. I wonder what caused you to even move from that place of, okay, there is no God there. That doesn’t work for me to, well, maybe there is. Maybe there has to be something more than just this natural world.
Jay Medenwaldt
17:17 – 18:14
My interest in psychology largely drove that. I was really kind of interested in religion from a psychological perspective. And really kind of what I wanted to understand about religion was why people would believe things that are so obviously false. Like what drives people to be so sure that God exists and their specific view of God is right, you know. And what I thought at the time was, all religions are contradictory. It’s all just opinion. There’s no evidence. You know, the Bible has contradictions. And so it just seemed so weird to me that people would believe it. So I wanted to kind of understand that from a psychological perspective. And that was around, say, my sophomore year of college, and that was around the time the Da Vinci Code was really popular and New Atheism was really popular. So I was kind of interested in those perspectives as well.
Jana Harmon
18:15 – 19:01
You were thinking about religion, particularly from an academic perspective. I think it’s important at the academic level, because I certainly found that religion in the academy or in the university is often pictured as merely social construction, that there’s no real God there, that it’s made up essentially for social or psychological purposes, that it serves a purpose even in evolution. But you were probably grappling with those kinds of ideas or what were you thinking about religion at this point as you began studying it?
Jay Medenwaldt
19:01 – 20:37
Definitely had professors that were atheists. And, you know, at least I assumed kind of so from the way they talk in class and the way they talked about religion and, you know, coming back to teach years later, found out that they are, in fact, atheists. And it wasn’t like hostility towards faith necessarily, but just talking about it, like. And you said merely just a social construction or something like that. And so, yeah, that was kind of going on in the background. But for me, and kind of my interest in psychology more broadly has kind of been on bias. And why do people show bias? Like, why do we believe false things? Why do we have errors in reasoning? And I remember, you know, even in my intro to psych class learning about confirmation bias, and it kind of blew my mind in that, like, wow, like, this is amazing. This explains so much and how people behave and why they believe the things they do and thinking that applied to religion and everything else and politics and all areas of life. And so that was a big step for me, because then when I wanted to start studying religion and studying it from a psychological perspective, I was very adamant that, all right, if I’m going to study this and critique it, I need to avoid confirmation bias. You know, my bias is against religion. And so I need to look on both sides. I need to see what, if anything, religious people have to say about their beliefs and why they believe and see where they’re coming from from that perspective.
Jana Harmon
20:37 – 21:36
Yeah, that’s a very difficult thing to do, isn’t it, putting yourself in a neutral position as a researcher, trying to take yourself out of your being aware of your own confirmation bias. Because we all tend to migrate towards those things that we are comfortable with, the things that we already believe, the things that we want to be true, particularly when it’s applied to religion. I think would be very interesting because at that point, you were still a bit of an outsider. So you could look at religious beliefs and consider them to be false in some way, but on the other hand, you live with a beautiful Christian woman who embraces the sincerity of her own beliefs as true. So how did you navigate that and what did you find? And I am curious, as an aside, as why you think people embrace false beliefs.
Jay Medenwaldt
21:36 – 22:49
What’s hard about it is that it’s also the same reason or partially the same reasons people embrace true beliefs. Right? And so there’s so many factors involved, especially with complex decisions. But for me, you know, where I kind of started my journey was with the Case for Christ. I didn’t really know anything about it. I didn’t even know the title of the book. So I googled book written by atheists who became a Christian, and that’s what popped up. And so I was like, oh, that sounds like that book. I’ve heard about that. That might be it. So I’ll start there. And so I started there, and that’s when, you know, podcasts had just kind of started. So I was listening to some podcasts and watching videos. I read some other books, both from Christians, non-Christians, atheists, people, other religions or articles. And some of this we were talking about already in class. I took a psycho-religion class and we were reading some literature from different religious groups and things like that. So part of it was already what I was doing in school, but I was kind of going above and beyond on my own and researching it, looking up, trying to kind of really understand what different people believed and why.
Jana Harmon
22:49 – 22:55
And what were you finding? And for those who aren’t familiar with the Case for Christ. Can you explain what that is?
Jay Medenwaldt
22:55 – 24:54
Yeah. So Case for Christ was written by Lee Strobel, who his wife actually became a Christian and he wanted to essentially disprove it. And so he did a bunch of research with and looked at Christian scholars for kind of the reliability of the New Testament and was shocked to find out that it’s actually a reliable text. And as a result he became a Christian. And so that was kind of similar to then. You know, I didn’t just read that book, I read some of his others and other Christians and got deeper into the evidence. But that was kind of my experiences. I thought the Bible wasn’t reliable. I thought it was a translation of a translation of a translation and that had been changed. And so reading that and finding out otherwise was shocking to me. And then hearing some of the natural theology arguments such as the cosmological argument or teleological arguments, some of those that were really convincing to me, but for me, again, trying to avoid confirmation bias or at least have the presumption of humility as like, okay, well I’m, you know, 21, 22 year old college student at that point, maybe I’m just being fooled by these Christians because for me, if I thought if the apologetic arguments were any good at all or true, like this is what preachers would preach every week in church, or all my religious friends, my grandparents, like why haven’t they told me about this? They must know that it’s all a ruse and so that’s why they’re not sharing it. And so it must be false. And so I have to go and see what the atheists, scientists and philosophers are saying and how they respond to these arguments because I just, I don’t have the knowledge to know better. And so when I was doing that, I was surprised that their arguments weren’t as deep or as good or consider as many factors. And so that was a huge surprise to me.
Jana Harmon
24:56 – 25:28
So you were coming across these fairly strong or compelling apologetic or arguments for God. Like you mentioned the cosmological argument or the teleological argument, but the refutation of the atheist philosophers wasn’t as substantive as you thought it was. For those who aren’t familiar, again, in a nutshell, can you talk very briefly about what the cosmological argument is or the teleological argument is?
Jay Medenwaldt
25:28 – 26:16
Yeah, so the cosmological argument and, and there’s many forms of it, but essentially is about why does something exist rather than nothing or kind of the creation of the universe and what caused the universe to exist in the first place. And so, you know, those arguments hopefully point to some sort of supernatural being, something outside of the universe, with the traits that we see in the Christian God. And then the teleological argument would be, you know, kind of different variations of that, but kind of focus on the divine design of the universe or of the systems within the universe, such as life and things like that. So various levels of complexity that we see that wouldn’t likely occur without some sort of divine intervention.
Jana Harmon
26:16 – 26:35
So as you were moving through these arguments and evidences for the Christian faith, and you were counterbalancing that with the more naturalistic, atheistic philosophy and alternate or alternative religions, what were you finding?
Jay Medenwaldt
26:35 – 27:40
Ultimately, I thought that, you know, the arguments would be discounted by the atheists when they say, you know, here’s where these Christians are getting wrong data, or they’re misrepresenting the science. And to some degree, they tried to do that, but it was more as like, well, we don’t know, or this could possibly happen. Or, you know, with like, the design argument, you know, the claim, like, well, with how big the universe is, you know, it’s sure that life would develop somewhere in the universe, but then you’d look at, you know, the actual numbers from Christians, which they didn’t come up with the numbers on their own, but by putting together secular sources come to see some of the numbers that even with accounting for how big our universe is, the chances of life developing spontaneously are essentially zero. They’re so small. And so the atheists weren’t able to really give good explanations for then why life would have developed nothing that seemed to be a better explanation. I guess you’d say.
Jana Harmon
27:40 – 28:19
How was this affecting you as you were studying and balancing the information you were absorbing and trying to stay neutral and trying not to, you know, move one way or the other with confirmation bias. What was going on in your own mind? You going, wow, this is kind of compelling evidence. Like, Lee Strobel, over a period of time, was surprised by what he was finding and was not wanting Christianity to be true, but yet was finding the evidence to be compelling. What was going in your mind?
Jay Medenwaldt
28:20 – 29:42
Yeah, so, you know, I’m actually, I’m not a very emotional person, so there weren’t really a lot of emotions attached to it. There were, you know, it wasn’t an experience of dread or joy. At least a large experience is very much kind of factually oriented, like, you know, a kid playing in the mud trying to figure out what happens when you add this water and then you add some sand and, you know, just kind of playing and so interested in that sense of just trying to understand kind of the facts and the details and what the people believe. And so that was kind of my approach and that’s mostly how it was. And then maybe toward the end there kind of started to be, there was a, you know, a moment where it was kind of like oh crap, I think this might be true. Kind of oh crap was not like, not like a strong like oh, I can’t believe this, but like oh, like this has implications for my life and maybe, you know, know my, some of my moral behavior might have to change because you know, it makes, you know, sense that if this is true and God exists and he wants us to be committed, it doesn’t make sense to be half hearted. And so I kind of just made the decision, look, I guess I’m going to believe and I’m going to take it serious. And it was kind of a very almost robotic experience for me.
Jana Harmon
29:42 – 31:10
A very pragmatic approach, almost like two plus two equals four. And that’s the way that it is. And so I’ll go this direction. Almost like there is a God. The evidence points to the necessity for God. And I presume that it’s not just the proving of God’s existence as you, as you just articulated. It’s about a surrendering of your life. You said you were, you were going to have to make some moral changes because it’s more than just God exists, that God matters and there’s a surrendering that has to occur when you in, in Christian terms, give your life to Jesus. So along the path there, I presumed that you came to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, that he came and he died for those sins that, that we all commit, you know, that we all know that we’re guilty in some way but that he was the remedy for that. But if you give your life to him, that there’s a certain following after, like your wife had done said so beautifully and modeled that she was following after Christ, that she had given her life to Christ. I presume living with a beautiful example gave you the understanding of the weight of the decision, even though it was a fairly pragmatic one.
Jay Medenwaldt
31:11 – 32:51
Yeah, yeah. And there was definitely looking back, you know, I see both sides of it was like, oh, there was kind of an immediate change. But also I’m like, well some more things should have been obvious in terms of what changed. But I was, you know, I was still playing hockey. And so hockey culture is. Is very much opposed to Christian culture. It’s very, sex and alcohol are very big in the hockey world. And so, you know, most of my teammates, I don’t know if they were believers or kind of just cultural kind of Christians or just complete atheists. I only had a handful of conversations with teammates, as it would occasionally come up, or they’d see me reading a book on a trip or something. So it wasn’t a big part. Um, but, you know, hockey culture, regardless of whether or not any of my teammates believed, and I get the sense that most of them probably didn’t, would kind of be soft atheists, you know, it made some difficulties for me at times. Like one of my teammates for his bachelor party, they, you know, pretty much my whole team went to a strip club. And so I decided not to go. And so there was definitely tensions both. Both ways before converting and after. So it’s kind of being pulled in two different directions. And that’s where I think kind of the balance between Lindsay being a believer and we weren’t married yet, and then the rest of my team really not being. And not growing up on that, I think made it simple for me to just at least easier to just look at it as best I could in just a factual way.
Jana Harmon
32:51 – 33:34
So that the world of hockey and even military service is not for the weak of heart, or I would imagine the culture would be challenging in both of those environments and caused you to really solidify and confirm with a degree of I would imagine it would take a strong boldness and courage to stand in a certain moral direction against the flow, and that you would have to really know why you believed what you believed in a substantive way in order to stand strong in your faith in both of those environments.
Jay Medenwaldt
33:35 – 34:44
Yeah, the military environment. So there’s a lot of believers in the military, so that part’s not as difficult. And sometimes the military is known for maybe some foul language and some other behaviors, but that’s not the military in general. But the big thing that changed was that I cleaned up my language, which isn’t necessarily a huge step, but it’s something. But it’s pretty common still for me to be sitting on the team bus after a road trip and sitting with my teammates who were watching porn on their computers or something, or it would just play in the locker room sometimes before practices. And I didn’t really realize how that would conflict with Christianity, because I was still such a young believer. I didn’t really understand much of what the Bible said. I was actually reading through the Bible at that point for the first time. And so some of those things started to come later down the road as I began to understand it, some other changes. So, you know, it was more difficult then, but then I was more secure in my faith too. So it didn’t take a whole lot, or at least it didn’t seem like it.
Jana Harmon
34:45 – 36:02
You had invested in your belief in God, that you were obviously, when you’re reading the Bible, you’re wanting to seek after what is true and what you’ve decided to believe in terms of God is real, the Bible is true. You had been convinced enough to start really investing your life. And it sounds like you were making some really substantive changes over time. It’s also interesting to me that you continue to pursue academic interests that relate belief and psychology. And I wondered, because we don’t often have the opportunity to talk with someone who has a PhD who specializes in understanding the psychology of belief and religion and how those intersect. And I wondered if I were a skeptic. And I said, Jay, I think that people only believe in religion or God because of, you know, it gives them social belonging or it gives them a psychological crutch, or they’re just weaker. They need that. How would you respond?
Jay Medenwaldt
36:03 – 36:49
So for me, I didn’t need it at all. I was perfectly content in my life and how things were going, and I had promising future. I was happy in the moment, so I didn’t need it. But I was convinced by the evidence. And I know that’s fairly rare, it’s not the norm. But I’m saying ultimately it doesn’t necessarily matter why we believe things. And there are people who believe in God for reasons like that, psychological reasons, and they need comfort, they need something in their life. They just grew up with it. And that’s fine. That’s just as much, well, not just as much, but, you know, there’s people who believe in atheism for similar reasons or believe in science.
Jana Harmon
36:49 – 38:58
Yes, and I also wonder in a social, psychological way, I guess I’ve seen that, that these, what I would consider functional reasons for belief, even though people dismiss belief in God because someone just believes. Because the irony to me is that it’s only belief in God that can bring you the kind of real identity and belonging and comfort and hope and all of those things that in our, we, in our humanity long for those really deep things of value to make us who we are. Our dignity, our purpose, our meaning. All of those things are only found in the person of Christ and belief in Christianity that, that actually provides all of those things. It really is very fully explanatory, not only from, like you say, the, the rational, reasonable reasons, but, but it provides everything else on top of it. I’m just curious. You became a believer before you and Lindsay married. Was that the case? Yeah, she stayed with you for a long time as someone who, who didn’t believe. But I presume that just for those who are listening too, from Lindsay’s perspective. I know you’re speaking for her, but she was very patient, it sounds like, with you and through your process. If, if someone is with someone who is a believer there and someone is not, what would you recommend in terms of for the believer? How should they engage with their significant other? With someone who has a lack of faith or a lack of belief? What would, what would be best recommendations for someone who’s trying to navigate that?
Jay Medenwaldt
39:00 – 39:16
I think there’s just so many individual variations and I actually give Lindsay a hard time sometimes that she shouldn’t have dated me in the first place because especially when we’re with our daughters, like, don’t, don’t take a page out of mom’s book on this one. Right.
Jana Harmon
39:16 – 39:16
Yes.
Jay Medenwaldt
39:17 – 41:58
So, yeah, I mean, there’s different factors to consider. How long you’ve been together, your relationship, the type of person there is. Yeah, I was okay with going to church with her once in a while, but she never really pushed it. She never, you know, forced me to go with her. I think for me, that helped. Had she introduced me to some apologetic stuff, I probably would have been interested. But if she was kind of naggy about it or, you know, she was making a big, you know, expected me to maybe tithe or act different morally. That made a bit created conflict and may have pushed me away and pushed me more into kind of the Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris mindset of just criticizing religion. And I don’t know if I would have become a believer or if our relationship would have maintained the way that it did. So a lot of different factors and things are different if you make married and yeah, so there’s a lot of balls to juggle. And typically, you know, kind of the one maybe close to universal would be that if you’re making someone upset by trying to convert them or argue with them, like, that’s probably not a good method. Granted. Again, There are maybe some personality and relationship factors where, you know, that might be seen as maybe a sign of respect or a fun challenge, but that’s often not the case. So having patience is often good. Finding out more specifically about why people believe. And we didn’t have actually have those discussions. She never asked me why I don’t believe or would you be interested in reading this book? But she could have like we could have had those conversations in a friendly, cordial way and, and even a mock debate kind of way. So it’s hard to kind of say. And knowing that also kind of the research and people convert for so many different reasons. You know, I guess the go to and what I kind of the way I think about how I do ministry and what I think sets the best example is, you know, if Christians were known for being very thoughtful people, not necessarily intelligent or educated, but really thoughtful in their approach to things and kind and loving and had those two things, the thoughtfulness and the kindness, that that would probably go a lot further than anything else in keeping people in the faith and attracting others to it.
Jana Harmon
41:58 – 43:41
She went about her faith in kind of a quiet, exemplary way, allowing you to have time, you know, in space to process at the pace that you were willing to go. When you’re researching something like you were in a very academic way, there’s a process towards change of mind. Right? It’s not something that usually happens immediately. It’s usually a process over time. And for you, what I appreciate about your story is that even though you were doing it in kind of an academic way, trying to take that neutral road without confirmation bias, you were opening yourself to the possibility of belief on both sides. And then you were willing to go where the evidence led. And again, you of all people who have a PhD who understands the social and psychology, social sociology and psychology behind belief, resistance and approach and all of that kind of thing, I’m sure it’s even interesting to analyze your own story in that way. But when, when we’re talking or with skeptics. I’m curious from your perspective for a Christian, if someone seems unwilling or resistant or really steps back, really not wanting to have anything to do with, say, a conversation or even a book, how would you recommend that Christians engage with those who seem resistant? Is there anything that we can do?
Jay Medenwaldt
43:41 – 44:57
Yeah, just real quick though, I guess you mentioned analyzing my own story and that’s something I think about a lot because I was still relatively young. I was 21 old years or 22. I don’t remember the exact kind of time. This was like my sophomore junior year in college. I was a little older college student because of hockey. And so knowing that I was still fairly young and not as knowledgeable and have learned a lot since then, like, it’s important for me to constantly kind of re-evaluate why I believe and kind of go through those steps and so relooking at some of the arguments or even different doctrines. And my views have maybe changed a little, or I’ve been maybe more critical of some arguments, but then kind of opened up to seeing some others actually are more effective than maybe I initially thought. And so that’s been kind of fun in some ways to kind of see things new and look at it with a new perspective, as I’ve learned more even about religion in general, but also psychology. You asked about advice to other people with hostile people who are hostile to the faith people.
Jana Harmon
44:57 – 45:00
Yeah. People who seem disinterested or resistant.
Jay Medenwaldt
45:00 – 46:07
Yeah, Again, it’s so hard because it can be so touchy. Like one person, you know, in your life, you got two friends who don’t believe. One of them you might be able to poke and prod and maybe argue with, and they may enjoy that and it can be fun. But another one, you do that and, you know, he gets mad and storms off or doesn’t want to hear it. But probably the most useful approach is to make Christianity attractive to some way or in doing this through the way you live your life or the way you engage in others or, you know, opening questions and asking questions. And it doesn’t have to be necessarily from, you know, getting them to ask you questions, but if you have that relationship where that happens. And so when things come up in the news or you’re sitting around talking, whatever the context they call, well, you know, you don’t believe in God, so why do you believe this? Or why do you hold this political view and kind of waiting for them to be interested to ask the question back to you and, and being prepared for that moment.
Jana Harmon
46:08 – 47:08
It’s good to be in relationship with someone and just maintain that relationship and create opportunities as they come. But yeah, I really appreciate what you’re saying there too, being mindful and I think listening to the Holy Spirit. I know that may sound strange for a skeptic listening in, but if there is a skeptic who’s listening but curious and they’re wondering perhaps a step to take forward. Now, your journey was really very intellectual. You were like, you say, fairly pragmatic in your approach. What would you recommend for perhaps even someone like that? Would you suggest them opening the Case for Christ or looking at some apologetics, books or arguments or where do you think would be a good place to go or even Scripture?
Jay Medenwaldt
47:09 – 48:51
Yeah, yeah. I guess it depends on kind of their interest, their level, like, you know, going through, you know, grad school three times. You know, you people even at grad school are at different level from each other, but, you know, they kind of tend to have different interests than people who haven’t been to grad school. But that’s not a universal. So trying to meet people where they are and finding sources that are at the level you’re looking at. And so, you know, if you’re very academic, the Case for Christ is probably going to be too simplistic for you and you’re going to see a thousand holes in it, probably, or critiques. And not that it’s necessarily that it’s wrong, but that it doesn’t go into the depth that you want or expect. And so you might need, need a deeper resource, something like Craig Blomberg’s book on the eyewitness testimony of the gospel or, you know, Reasonable Faith or something at more depth or maybe even getting into academic journal articles. But if you’re not super into intellectual debates, but you’re still curious and maybe, you know, Case for Christ would be a good place to start. And some of the material can be very challenging, but also there’s a lot of resources that make it simple. So whether you’re a Christian or an atheist or whatever your belief is, it’s. I say don’t be overly critical of one side, be equally critical of both sides, but also finding resources to compare back and forth that are at equal level and at your level of interest and ability.
Jana Harmon
48:51 – 49:41
I think that’s a good recommendation. And just to circle back almost to the beginning of your story, your mother rejected faith because of a tragic event in her life, her husband dying. And you are sitting there as someone who, who understands the sociology and psychology of religion or faith, that there are multiple reasons why someone may not even be interested in looking at the intellectual arguments because there may be something else going on. Can you help us understand just a little bit here at the end how there so many factors affecting our belief in God or resistance to God for more than just intellectual reasons?
Jay Medenwaldt
49:42 – 51:34
Yeah. And really it’s not just belief in God that’s affected. It’s all our beliefs. It’s what we believe about politics, about climate change about, you know, you know, whether the earth is flat, which it’s, you know, most people don’t believe that, but there are growing number of people that do. So even in terms of, you know, what we use for medications or whether we get vaccinated or all these different things, we have the same factors at play and a lot of them are group dynamics. So what were we raised with? So what feels comfortable and familiar with for us? What do our friends believe that plays a big role? And the people that you talk to or interact with on social media regularly or the people you see in your life, they, you know, those social relationships are constantly pushing or pulling us one way or the other, so pulling us toward that which we like. So if someone is warm and friendly and kind, that attracts us to them and that by kind of default we’re attracted to some of their beliefs as well. And it’s not automatic that we’re going to adopt all their beliefs, but it makes their beliefs seem more likely to be true or easier to accept, regardless of what that is, you know, and then, you know, the logical side of the arguments play a role, but those are influenced by some of those other factors. We’re constantly being kind of pushed and pulled in different directions by things we’re not even aware of. And so we can overcome that by being slow and deliberate, taking our time, withholding judgment until we’re getting all the information, collecting information from multiple sources from both sides. So it takes time with difficult decisions.
Jana Harmon
51:34 – 53:51
Yes, it does. It does for all of us. I think we all need to be a little bit more self aware of why we do things, not just why we believe what we believe. We need to do that in so many areas of life, but even why do we do the things that we do? We’re influenced and affected by so many different factors. Here at the close here. Jay, I know the name of our podcast is called eX-skeptic because we talk with those who are former skeptics and atheists, at least with regard to the question of God. But what I want to say is, and it’s been brought to my attention that just because I believe in God or doesn’t mean that I’m still not skeptical in all the right ways. Right? And I think that’s what I hear from you is that just because you now call yourself a believer, and I presume for how many years now, about 20 almost. But I hear that you, in the way that you approach – just because again, you’re an academic. You have your PhD. You’re very thoughtful, you’re skeptical in all the right ways. Even still, that you continue to test your beliefs, that you continue to look at both sides, that you continue to ground your own faith and belief in God by looking at evidence and looking at arguments, reading different articles. And I think that’s where we all need to be honestly is we’re always looking to, in a humble way to learn, to grow, to understand, to ground what we believe and why we believe it. And, I love that about you and about your story is. It’s a really great exhortation to everyone. So I think we all need to be in that place that you’re teaching us to really, to be in that sober minded kind of pragmatic place where we can actually humbly come to the evidence and even when we’re talking with others, that we’re all in a place of learning and growing and ever grounding our beliefs. And I thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your story, Jay.
Jay Medenwaldt
53:51 – 53:54
Yeah, thanks for having me. I hope it could be helpful for some people.
Jana Harmon
53:55 – 54:30
Oh, I’m sure that it will be. Thanks so much. Thanks for tuning in to eX-skeptic to hear Dr. Jay Medenwalt’s story. To learn more about his work and the resources he recommended, be sure to check out our show notes. This podcast is part of the C.S. Lewis Institute podcast network. If you’ve enjoyed this episode, we’d appreciate it if you could follow, rate, review and share with your friends and social network. Your support helps us reach more listeners with these powerful stories of transformation. In the meantime, I’ll be looking forward to seeing you next time where we’ll share another another unlikely story of belief.
