Can science and faith truly coexist? In this compelling episode of eXskeptic, Dr. Michael Guillen—Harvard physicist, former ABC News science editor, bestselling author, and once-devout atheist—shares his unexpected journey from scientific certainty to Christian faith. With three PhDs in physics, mathematics, and astronomy from Cornell, Dr. Guillen lived and breathed science, dismissing religion as irrelevant and unscientific.
But when science couldn’t answer his most profound questions—like “Why is there something rather than nothing?”—his lifelong assumptions began to unravel.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Michael Guillen is a physicist, a bestselling author, and a former Emmy-winning science correspondent for ABC News. Holding a rare 3D PhD from Cornell University in physics, mathematics, and astronomy, Dr. Guillen has taught at Harvard University and served as the science editor for ABC News, appearing regularly on Good Morning America, 20/20, and Nightline. Now an internationally respected speaker and writer, Dr. Guillen is the author of several acclaimed books, including Can a Smart Person Believe in God? and Believing is Seeing. He speaks globally on the relationship between faith, science, and reason, advocating for intellectual honesty and the courage to ask life’s biggest questions.
Resources:
Books by Michael Guillen:
- “Believing Is Seeing”
- “Can a Smart Person Believe in God?”
Website: https://michaelguillen.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/michaelguillenphd/?hl=en
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michaelguillenphd
Twitter: https://x.com/drmguillen
Connect with eX-skeptic:
Website: https://exskeptic.org/
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/exskeptic
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/exskeptic
Twitter: http://x.com/exskeptic
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@exskeptic
Email info: info@exskeptic.org
Episode Transcript
Michael Guillen
00:00 – 00:18
Science is not a threat. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here talking to you. Do you think somebody like me who’s dedicated his entire life to science could be sitting here and telling you I’m also a devout Christian, if indeed science was through and through atheistic? No.
Jana Harmon
00:24 – 03:19
Hello and welcome to eX-skeptic, the podcast where we hear unlikely stories of belief. I’m your host Jana Harmon, and here we explore journeys from atheism or skepticism to faith in God. If you’ve ever wrestled with life’s biggest questions or wondered how belief can emerge from doubt, you’re in the right place. Each episode we uncover the real personal stories of those who once dismissed faith as implausible, people who, against all odds, found a reason to believe. Together, we dig into the challenges they faced, the questions they asked, and the insights they gained. Whether you’re a skeptic seeking answers, a believer wanting to engage meaningfully with others, or just simply curious, there’s something here for you. And if you like this episode, you can explore more of our compelling stories and resources on our website at eX-skeptic.org where you can also sign up for our monthly email or dive deeper by visiting our YouTube channel featuring over 100 life changing stories. And if you’re curious and you want to discuss your questions with one of our guests, we’d love to connect you. Just reach out to us at info@exskeptic.org and don’t forget, we’d just love to hear from you. Share your thoughts, feedback or ideas through comments on our platforms or email. Your voice helps us shape our conversations and ensures we’re addressing what matters most to to you. Have you ever thought that belief in science and belief in God is incompatible? Today’s episode takes us into the fascinating intersection between science and faith.
There’s a common belief that seeing is believing, that only what can be observed and proven through science, math or logic is worth accepting. Faith, by contrast, is often dismissed as merely wishful thinking or fairy tales. But our guest today challenges that perspective. Dr. Michael Guillen, a distinguished scholar with a 3D PhD in mathematics, astronomy and physics from Cornell University who is also a former Harvard professor and a renowned television journalist and a best-selling author, believes the opposite that ‘believing is seeing.’ Once an atheist who saw science and faith as incompatible, Dr. Guillen now argues that every belief system begins with unprovable assumptions, axioms we take on faith. For him, science and Christianity are not only compatible, but deeply complementary. How did he reach this conclusion? Join us as we unpack his incredible story and explore the profound harmony he discovered between science and belief in God. You won’t want to miss it. Welcome to eX-skeptic. Dr. G. It’s so great to have you with me today!
Michael Guillen
03:19 – 03:23
Jana, it’s my pleasure. Thank you so very, very much. God bless you.
Jana Harmon
03:24 – 03:47
I just love having you on. It really is such a privilege. You bring such gravitas to the table, and I would love for you to introduce yourself. Can you tell us as we’re getting started, a bit about your academic background and training, your even your work as a professor, your experience as a TV journalist and best-selling author. In a nutshell, tell us who you are.
Michael Guillen
03:47 – 04:56
Okay. In 60 seconds or less, this is my life reduced to 60 seconds. First of all, I was born in East LA and really I have recollections from the second grade that I wanted to be a scientist. So that dream carried me to UCLA, then Cornell where I earned what I call a 3D PhD in physics, math and astronomy. Then went on to Harvard where I taught physics for about eight or nine years. And then through a series of circumstances I ended up being the science editor for ABC News and was there for about 14 years, did Good Morning America, Nightline 2020, World News Tonight with Peter Jennings and actually here in Atlanta I also did some work for CNN and actually CNN wanted to hire me, but I wanted to go in another direction. I produced a movie, I’ve written a lot of books, best-selling books internationally. Many of them have been translated into many different languages. But here I am with you Jana, and that’s what matters the most. And I really, really. Look, I genuinely, I don’t give a whole lot of interviews these days because I’m so busy, but I am genuinely looking forward to our conversation. So thank you for inviting me.
Jana Harmon
04:57 – 05:31
As am I. As am I. So, let’s get started because I know that in your life religion was part of your early picture, but it didn’t seem to take or you rejected it as compared to your belief in science early on. So why don’t you talk to us about what your life looked like growing up, what your family believed? Was God part of the picture? Did you have any faith or belief in God at all during childhood?
Michael Guillen
05:32 – 08:54
I was born in East LA as I indicated to you. So, I’m Mexican, Spanish, I’ve got a little bit of Austrian in me, a Cuban on my mom’s side. Her mother immigrated to the United States legally from Cuba. So I grew up in a Spanish speaking household, was the only Hispanic or Latino family in the, once we moved out of East LA, we moved to a town called Montebello, which was just the town over. We moved when I was like in the third grade. But I was born in East LA and I remember, as I indicated a little earlier, I just had this kind of all-consuming love for science. And I don’t know where that came from. Well, I do now. I didn’t then, Jana, because most of my family never really went past high school. I think my dad was the only one who had a college degree. He was journeyman carpenter by trade, and he was a minister, became a lawyer. We did go to church every Sunday, actually more times than that per week. I think probably like five, six times a week we would go to church in one form or another. But it really didn’t stick for me. First of all, the services were all conducted in Spanish. And even though my parents spoke Spanish, my grandparents spoke Spanish, my aunts and uncles. I didn’t. I was kind of that second generation, third generation. And so, I was actually embarrassed when I heard my family speak Spanish. I didn’t want anything to do with it. I didn’t try to learn how to speak Spanish because as I said, once we moved to Montebello, we were the only Latino family in the entire neighborhood. So I kind of wanted to lay low. And, and so when we would go to church, the only attraction for me for church to was that they had a musical ensemble. They had drums, trumpets and stuff like that. And we kids would be allowed to play the instruments, and I was always gung ho about playing the drums. For me, that was the only reason I went to church. I couldn’t understand what they were saying about in the sermon or what people were talking about. It didn’t interest me.
The only thing that interested me was science. And I look back and I really credit my parents for encouraging my interest in science because I really was the oddball of the family. No other member of my family even to this day went into science. I was a black sheep if you were of the family. But I remember my dad at one point, and by now I think I was either in middle school or high school. I remember approaching him one day and I said, dad, I want to build a chemistry lab in our garage. And I remember him looking at me and he said, ‘All right, son.’ He says, ‘First I need to see the plans.’ Remember, he was a journeyman carpenter, so he was used to everything being done methodically and so forth. I didn’t realize it at the time. I was too young too stupid to understand. But obviously I honored his request. I drew something up, and he went to the lumber yard with me, and we bought the lumber, and I built it. And I’m amazed that I survived, because some of the things that I did in that chemistry lab were. Oh, I’m not sure. You know, kids don’t do this at home, right?
Jana Harmon
08:54 – 08:57
You didn’t blow up the garage or the house or anything?
Michael Guillen
08:57 – 12:24
Yeah, yeah, because I remember finding I discovered a simple recipe for making hydrogen gas. And, you know, hydrogen is extremely explosive. Remember the Hindenburg? Yes. And yet again, when you’re young, you don’t think that way. So, for me, that was kind of the early stages of becoming a scientist. But I remember that was all I cared about, Jana. I didn’t care about God. I didn’t think about God. I. The church services I went to made no impression on me whatsoever. I was just in my own bubble. And that was who I was when I bid my parents and my family goodbye on that day at LAX in Los Angeles. And I flew to Cornell to formally train as a scientist in grad school. And we can talk more about what happened then, but those were my formative years. That’s who I was. And one more thing which is very compatible with wanting to be a scientist is that I was very curious. I still am. I ask questions. There’s no questions off the table. No question is off the table. In my opinion, you ask anything you want. And my motto to people who follow me, ask tough questions, demand honest answers. So that was my defining personality. And I remember when I grew up and I started teaching at Cornell and I started teaching at Harvard, I made it a point to tell my kids, there’s no stupid question. Do not hold off asking a question. I know you’re going to think, oh, my friends here in class are going to think I’m stupid if I ask that question. Don’t think that way. And I even took it to another level. And I started, especially when I was at Harvard, and I told my kids, I said, ‘I’m going to judge you not only on the grades that you get on your quizzes and your exams and class participation, but the questions you ask.’ And I said, ‘Hit me with your toughest questions. And the tougher question you ask me, the better grade you’re going to get.’
So, I wanted to put a premium on curiosity, put a premium in, unfortunately today, most schools, especially public schools, teachers are overworked underpaid they don’t want to put up with people like me who are just always asking questions. But that, for me, was my youth. That’s who I was when I climbed on that plane and traveled from LA to Ithaca, New York, where Cornell is. And to this day, I’m still that person. But honestly, I’m still a skeptic, even though I’m a Christian, because even the Bible says the Bible commands us to discern the spirits. Well, what does that mean, discern the spirits? What does the Bible talk about? It’s asking you to be discriminating, to ask questions and demand honest answers. I mean, just put it simply, that’s what the Bible is saying. And you should never reach a point in your life, no matter how certain you are about your faith, that you should stop asking questions. And we can get into more of that later on. I know what I believe, and I can explain to you why I believe it. And I do not fear any questions. Questions from people, questions that I ask myself, questions that you might ask me. Today, I’m completely at peace here because I know what I believe and why I believe it.
Jana Harmon
12:24 – 13:03
We can’t hear that enough, Dr. G. Honestly, truth doesn’t fear questioning. Right? And it’s obvious to me you’ve been at the highest levels. Cornell, Harvard, I guess you would say, in terms of you’ve been in the fire, you remain in the fire, in terms of being willing to go there with anyone. And that speaks really to the robust nature of your beliefs, that you do know why you believe what you believe, but still love, though, that you say that you’re still a skeptic and as we should be, in the sense of always asking questions, being willing to go where the truth leads us.
Michael Guillen
13:03 – 15:37
I believe in the Bible, but it took me a long time to get there. I mean, as I said when I remember landing in Ithaca, New York, far from my family, far from everything, all my friends, everything, I just left it all behind. And I didn’t know a soul in Ithaca, New York. Not a soul. I had no relative there. No. I mean, I was literally alone. And it was a kind of wilderness experience for me. But it was okay because I had my science and that was the love of my life. I didn’t need anything else. I didn’t need a social life. I didn’t want a social life. I felt that would interfere. And so, I became a scientific monk. And literally. And I choose those words carefully because what’s a monk? A monk is somebody who sequesters himself in a cloistered environment and just immerses himself. Well, I immersed myself in science and I felt I was the luckiest guy in the world. So, I worked seven days a week, typically slept about three hours. I’d leave the lab maybe at 2, 3 in the morning, wake up at 6, go back to the lab. Barely groomed myself. I had a basement lab; at that time it was called the lab of nuclear studies. Today I think it’s called the lab of elementary particle physics. And it was in the basement, no windows. So, I didn’t know if it was day or night. I didn’t care if it was day or night. I didn’t care if it was Monday, Sunday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I didn’t care if it was the Martin Luther King Day or Independence Day.
I mean, I was literally, when I say I was a scientific monk, I was thoroughly head over heels in love with science, and that’s the only thing I cared about. When I made a few friends in grad school, all we did was talk physics. In the midst of my study in physics, I wanted to solve a problem that was in astronomy, so I had to take astronomy classes. Then it became very mathematical. So, I ended up having three offices at Cornell. I don’t think it’s ever been done before. I had an office in the physics department. Actually, I had four offices. I had an office in the physics department. I had an office in the math department. I had an office in the astronomy department. And then I actually ended up having an office in the engineering department, electrical engineering, because without getting into details, my thesis chair, my thesis chairman was an electrical engineer. But the whole time I was just in love with science. That’s all I cared about.
Jana Harmon
15:38 – 16:31
As a Christian in science, when you went there, you said that science was your world, it was your love. Science by itself is neutral. Scientists are not in terms of the way in which they look at the lens of science or through the lens of, through which they see science. And when you went to Cornell, it sounds like you had rejected the religion or whatever religion was of your parents. But there was a worldview, I presume that that grounded your belief in science. What was that? The naturalistic or materialistic worldview? What did you think of supernatural belief at that time? Did you call yourself an atheist or agnostic or how did you consider yourself at that stage?
Michael Guillen
16:31 – 29:53
I would call myself a practical atheist because I, you used the word reject. I didn’t reject, I never even embraced it. I’m not, there are atheists, hostile atheists, hateful atheists, who deliberately and willfully reject Christianity because maybe mom and dad took him to Sunday school too often or they were hurt by a Christian of some sort. Unfortunately, that’s too often the case today. But I just wasn’t. Science, I don’t know how else to tell you, but that science was the only thing I ever loved in my life. And so it wasn’t like, ‘oh, I’m rejecting this, I’m rejecting.’ No, I never thought of it. I never thought of God. I never thought of worshiping a God. I never thought of the supernatural world. My world was the universe, the physical universe. I just wanted to learn as much about the universe as I could.
So, yes, in retrospect, I had a materialistic worldview. That’s the typical kind of modern scientific worldview. It hasn’t always been. If you go back to the founding of the scientific method in Christian Europe during the 16 and 1700s and even before that in the 1500s with Galileo and so forth, they were Christians. And so, they had no trouble being Christians and scientists at the same time. But that’s not the case today. And I think you said it very well, Jana. I think science itself is agnostic. Science doesn’t take sides. The science has no real opinion about whether God exists or doesn’t exist. It doesn’t want to get involved in that discussion. Science is a materialistic endeavor, at least modern science is now. So, the only thing, if you really want to be strict about today’s modern scientific method as opposed to the one back, as I say, in the 15, 16 and 1700s in Europe, today’s scientific method is very secular. But even though it’s in the sense that you’re not expected or allowed to use God as part of any of your explanations. But that does not mean, and this is where people get confused, so they jump to the conclusion, ‘oh, well, then that means science is atheistic.’ No, it’s doesn’t.
Let’s put it this way. If you think of science as a game, it has certain rules. Just like any game, if you’re playing, you know, peanut or poker or whatever game you’re playing, there are rules, right? And so today’s rules of scientific engagement is that we all agree that the explanations we come up with, that we offer to explain the evidence that we gather has to be secular. That’s just the name of the game. But it’s not saying that that’s the only game in town. I hope I’m making myself clear. And this is where a lot of, especially a lot of Christians just misunderstand. And that’s why they hate science or they see science as a threat. Stop it. Science is not a threat. Otherwise, I wouldn’t be here talking to you. Do you think somebody like me, who’s dedicated his entire life to science, could be sitting here and telling you I’m also a devout Christian, if indeed science was through and through atheistic? No. But as you say, yeah, a lot of scientists are atheists, and we could explore why.
There are reasons for it, one of which is that I think that when you rely on your mind a lot, as scientists do, you tend to become, you tend to worship your mind. And if you really want to explain atheism, at its core, atheism is just nothing more, and all the denominations, they all boil down to one thing. It’s people. Atheists are people who worship their minds. They just believe their minds will give them all the answers to all the questions they can ever think about. And I was that person when I went to grad school. And then I started asking, as I always have and I always will, asking certain tough questions. I expected my science could answer it. And it was a shock to me when I began learning that science cannot answer certain really tough questions.
And so, well, first and foremost was the question, simple but profound question of where did everything come from? Now, up until then, I had drunk the Kool Aid. I had bought into the standard scientific explanation of the Big Bang theory. Now, back then, when I was a grad student, there was just kind of the vanilla flavor, Big Bang Theory. Now, there are various flavors of Big Bang theory. We don’t have to get into it, but there’s the inflationary Big Bang theory and so forth. And then you have cold matter and dark matter. It’s much more complicated now. But back then, the answer to my question, where did everything come from? The answer to that tough question that science was offering me, my beloved science, was saying, well, it’s the Big Bang theory. Okay, well, it’s a very glamorous theory, and it’s a. You know. But then as a grad student, I started taking classes in cosmology. And especially when I started broadening out from just physics into astronomy and math.
So, I started taking classes in cosmology. And when you look at the Big Bang theory in detail, up close and personal, as it were, you start seeing it’s got a lot of problems. It’s got a lot of holes. And scientists, you know, especially scientists who are atheists you know, they’ll. Oh, no, no, no. It’s just, they’re just little minor things. We can, you know, we have an explanation. Well, no, you don’t. And so there was a point where for me to maintain my intellectual integrity, my intellectual honesty, I just really had to face up to the fact that the answer to my tough question that science was offering me just wasn’t adequate. But then that created a crisis for me because here I am, this young man who has lived all his life believing that science could answer all my tough questions. I really believed it. I believed that given enough time, gather enough evidence, science will answer all our questions. Well, I’ve left that, that naivete behind many, many years ago because that ain’t going to happen. In fact, quite the opposite. As we ask more questions and we dig more deeply, we actually, the questions multiply like rabbits and the questions become deeper and more profound.
And the Big Bang theory is an example of that where okay, that’s a good start. All right. The universe began with kind of an expansion, explosive expansion of some kind. It wasn’t like people think, like a stick of dynamite that goes off. It’s more subtle than that. It’s literally time and space erupted from the quantum vacuum. And the quantum vacuum itself is, woof, that is like a logical contradiction, but we don’t need to get into that. But that, you know, okay, well, the quantum vacuum is nothing, right? And it burped out this universe. So, boom, there’s your answer. Nothing. Everything came out of nothing. Well, how exactly does that work? And when you start looking at the math and you start looking at the physics and the astronomy behind it, you realize no, it doesn’t answer the question, where did everything come from? It just kicks the can down the road. So, because you say, okay, well, what happened before the Big Bang? Well, there was the quantum vacuum. Okay, well, where did the quantum vacuum come from? Well, the natural laws of the universe. Okay, well, where did the natural laws of the universe come from? I mean, you know, and I don’t mean to be flippant, but that. I mean, I’m just trying to communicate to your viewers that that’s just really the honest truth. And I am, if anything, I am intellectually rigorous. I am strict. I don’t buy any baloney. Not from Christians, not from scientists. I don’t buy baloney, period. I ask tough questions, and I demand honest answers.
But there was a crisis. Then I was like, ‘okay, well, if my science can’t answer it and my science was my entire world, where do I go for answers? Where can I possibly hope to find some credible answer to my question, where did everything come from?’ And so I, that’s where I remember one of my professors, Carl Sagan, who’s pretty well-known astronomer, he was one of my professors. And I remember he was just getting to be famous at the time. At the time, he was going on the Tonight show with Johnny Carson, and he created the Cosmos series, which became a big, big hit. And so, I just remember Carl, when he was being interviewed by reporters, he would often refer to the Vedas and being totally, how do I want to say, a blank slate. When it came to religions, I didn’t know what the Vedas were. Again, I was just a scientist. That’s all I cared about. But when I reached this crisis where I had to explore outside my scientific world for answers to my questions, I thought, well, that’s the place to start, Vedas. So I went to the library. Hey, it’s the sacred literature of the Hindu religion. Great. If it’s good enough for Carl, it’s good enough for me.
So, like everything I do in life to this day, I just dove in with both hands and both feet. I don’t do anything halfway, Jana. I don’t do anything halfway. And so, it was actually kind of interesting, you know, diving in and studying. Hinduism is, you know, one, arguably the oldest religion on Earth. And it’s been around, but it’s a very amorphous religion. It’s not really one religion. It’s. It’s kind of a mishmash of stuff. And I don’t mean that disrespectfully. I really make it a point. I really, really make it a point not to disrespect any other religion, including atheism. Okay? I just, that’s not my job. That’s not what God has called me to do. The job God has called me to do and I, and it is so crystal clear in my mind now, is to speak truth with love. And so I love atheists because I know what they’re going through. I was there, I was one of them. And I understand their confusion. I understand them.
So, then I remember a friend of mine who got wind of the fact that I was here. I go off on my spiritual journey, I guess you’d call it, you know, first time I ever stepped outside the scientific world. It was really kind of, in a way, scary, but exciting for me. So, a friend of mine gave me a copy of the I Ching. I’ll never forget. It was a little paperback copy of the I Ching. And I’m like, oh, okay, I Ching. I don’t know anything about the I Ching. But let me. Again, both hands, both feet. Boom. Went into. Started studying all about Chinese mysticism, Confucianism, all that, and Buddhism, of course. And then there was a guru making the rounds of the campus back then, and he was into Transcendental Meditation International. I don’t know if you remember that, but TMI was a big thing. And what really? I mean, I laugh now because I was thinking, ‘well, why would you be interested in TMI?’ I didn’t care. I was just exploring everything and anything at that point. I was just searching for an honest answer to my profound question. And so, I’m like, okay. And the guru was coming over to Cornell. And so, I remember attending the seminar, and I remember what caught my attention.
First of all, he looked very formidable. Long beard, you know, the robe. We’re like, oof, this is like. But he said, ‘you know, if you become a devotee of TMI, you can actually levitate.’ Well, that caught my attention. I’m a scientist that’s like anti-gravity. I’m like, right, Can I actually defy gravity? Woo, that would be kind of interesting. You know, I was just open to everything at that point, really. And in retrospect, it was exciting for me. It was a really exciting time in my life. It was like a kid who discovered that there was a world beyond his sandbox, this very small sandbox that I had been playing in, which was science. And it still is a very small sandbox, actually. And so I was like a kid, like, whoa, I get. Oh, there’s a candy shop. Oh, there’s an ice cream parlor. Oh, my gosh, there’s a theater there, you know, So I was like that.
Jana Harmon
29:56 – 30:05
Were you finding answers to your questions there? Why is there something rather than nothing? Were any of those paths giving you anything of substance?
Michael Guillen
30:06 – 33:33
They were offering me answers, but all of them struck me as very fanciful. You know, like, even if you look at the Babylonian creation mythology, it’s. It’s this. Many of the religions that do tackle the issue, where did everything come from? They portray or the answer they offer you is that there was a duel between light and dark or good and evil. And out of that conflict came, you know, the universe. And then there was a further conflict, or somebody devoured somebody else and then they spit out human beings. And I was reading that, I’m like, ‘well, that’s interesting.’ But that didn’t appeal to me intellectually, that, that didn’t appeal to me. And it certainly didn’t jibe with what I knew about the universe. It was just fanciful, entertaining. And again, I, please, I don’t mean any disrespect, as I learned a lot from each of the religions, I really did. And much of what I learned, if you want to ask me that, is a kind of respect for life. I think one of the constant threads in all religions is this respect for life. And Buddhism has an enormous respect for life, even down to the insects and so forth.
And also, the notion that somehow you have to quiet yourself, that somehow the world is a noisy place full of suffering and that they. Each religion offers you a different formula for how do you remove yourself from the suffering, how do you remove yourself from the noise? How do you reach some state of nirvana or enlightenment? But nearly every religion gave you a recipe. It’s a self-help. This is what you have to do. You got to do yoga, you got to meditate. So, it’s a kind of, each of the religions was offering you a recipe for how to get to that kind of enlightened state. So it was all about your effort. It was all about what you can do in order to get there, in order to get to heaven or to a heavenly state. And that was okay by me. And I thought, okay, well, maybe. And I experimented like with TMI. Hey, if you become a devotee, you levitate. I’m thinking, okay, I’m, I’m willing to try that. And then it was, I think, for me. And that went on for years.
And I remember discovering Herman Hess who was a Nobel Prize winning German novelist. And I just happened to, during this spiritual journey of mine, I came across his novels and I loved them because they were all about intellectuals who were looking for meaning in life, looking for answers to their tough questions. And I’m thinking, that’s me. His, his protagonists are me. So, Narcissus and Gold Moon or Beneath the Wheel or Siddhartha. I mean, these were, oh, I can’t tell you how excited I got because I could relate to those protagonists who were searching for answers to their deep questions. And so, I look back, Jana, and I think that was my Hermann Hess journey. That was my Hermann Hess like journey, my spiritual journey. And that went on for many, many years.
Jana Harmon
33:33 – 33:38
But during this time, you weren’t looking towards Christianity or Jesus?
Michael Guillen
33:39 – 40:58
Oh, no, no, not at all. And you know, I didn’t ask myself that, but it never occurred to me because these other religions to me were so exotic and I thought, ooh, you know, I’ve never, growing up, even though I didn’t embrace Christianity, it meant nothing to me. I grew up in a Christian home. And so, I just felt like that’s my parents’ religion. I’m a scientist now. I’m in my own world. I just felt that there was nothing there. Been there, done that. Even though I hadn’t. I just had this sense, I guess, of familiarity and, you know, it’s almost like Jesus said, you know, a prophet has no honor in his hometown. And I guess this religion had no honor because it was part of my hometown and Christianity. But I just. No, never, not once did it occur to me to pursue Christian. I never thought. No, that. But these others were interesting to me because they were new, and it was the shiny new toy. They were exotic from other countries.
But I remember one day, just like always, about 2, 3 in the morning, I’m walking across the quad. It’s dark. I loved it. Everybody else was asleep. I just loved that I was like the only. I was like the Phantom of the Opera. I was the only one awake. And so I’m trudging from the Lab of Nuclear Studies to Sage Hall, which is where my dorm was. And I loved my little room because it was a converted janitor’s closet. It was a janitor’s closet that they turned into a single room. Well, I loved it because I had my own bed, little single bed. And I had my dresser, and I think maybe a little desk, and that was it. But I liked it because just outside my room, there was the bathroom. So, I trudged back to my little hovel. And as I opened the door, I heard a scraping sound. And I just looked down and I see this white envelope with my name on it. And I’m like. I couldn’t process it. It’s like, what? And so, I just look at it open up and it’s a Valentine’s Day card. And I’m like, okay. I didn’t even know it was Valentine’s Day. And actually, technically it wasn’t because it was the day before. This is like three in the morning the following day. So I opened it up and it was signed Laurel. And I’m thinking Laurel.
And I remember two years earlier, I had had an undergraduate take my physics class who was named Laurel. And I remember it was a cold day, and I ran into her, and I just was like, ‘oh, hey, I got that card. Hey, thanks.’ That was like. I mean, really, I look back, I was really pretty stupid. But you have to understand, I never had a girlfriend. Even then. I had no social life, never went into any dances. I didn’t care about that. Again, it’s not that I rejected it. It just held no interest for me. It was all about science. So, I didn’t live a life of rejection. It wasn’t like I was rebelling. No. I was just doing what I loved in life. And so, anyway, so she, you know, she became the aggressor in a nice way. And, you know, we started, she invited me. She was staying at a house full of coeds just off campus. And it had a roof deck. So, I remember she invited me and took time away from my lab, but I figured, well, she’s a pretty girl. She was. She explained to me that she was a sorority girl, Kappa Kappa Gamma. And apparently, I learned later on that the Kappa girls are very pretty. They’re known for their beauty. Well, Laura was also very smart, but she’s a Kappa girl, Kappa Kappa Gamma. And so, she would invite me up to the roof, and we would sit there. And what I discovered about Laura was she, too, was asking tough questions and not finding honest answers. You know? And so, I remember just. We were up there past midnight, and so instead of being in my lab, I was up there with her. And one thing just led to another. And I remember she was a lapsed Catholic, and she was telling me how her mom had got into New Age stuff and dragged her into it all. And they would go to these, you know, crystal thing seminars where they would talk about the power of crystals. And so, she was into all that, while I was into, like, Hinduism and Buddhism and all that. So, we kind of meshed in a way, unexpectedly.
And so I remember one day, and I don’t know if it was up there or during the day, we would go to the bagel shop down College Town Bagels. And they still exist. Down from the campus. Campus is up on a hill. But down there in downtown Ithaca, there’s a place called College Town Bagel. And sometimes we would go down there to just talk, and we would eat bagels, warm right out of the oven. And maybe it was then that she said to me, ‘well, hey, you know, have you ever read the Bible? You know, I haven’t.’ I said, ‘no, no, no.’ And at that point I guess if you put me to the wall, I would say, number one, as I said to you earlier, it was just too familiar. I couldn’t believe there was anything in there for me. And number two, by then I, I sensed that Christians hated science. So why would I want to read a book that belongs to Christians who hate what I love? And so there was just no reason for me to want to read the Bible. And then she said the thing that really changed my life. She said, ‘well,’ she said, ‘I haven’t read it either and if you read it with me, we can read it together. Or if you agree to read to it, I’ll read it with you, and we’ll read it together.’ And by then I have to say I had an attraction to Laurel. She was really beautiful, obviously, but smart. And I had never really met anybody like that. And so I said, ‘okay, well, let’s do it. Yeah, why not?’
So, I remember we got a spiral notebook because, you know, we’re both intellectuals and as we’re reading the Bible we’re all again, a million questions. Michael Gillian reared his head. So, we’re reading, started Genesis and we’re no more than a couple of chapters in and we’re already with the questions. Oh, wait a minute, Genesis 2 seems to contradict Genesis 1. It’s like, wait a minute, in Genesis 1 it said there was day one, day two, day three now. But now in Genesis 2 he’s talking about Adam and Eve in the garden and billion questions, right? And so I remember telling Laurel, I said, ‘man, we better write these down. We’re never going to get through this book.’ I said, if we, you know, we could spend hours just discussing one question that was raised when we finished Revelations. It wasn’t like I fell on my knees and said, ‘hallelujah, praise Jesus, I’m a Christian.’ No, it didn’t work that way for me. I’m a very hardheaded guy and it takes a lot to impress me.
Jana Harmon
41:02 – 41:26
I’m curious. When you were reading through the Bible, of course, as a scientist, there’s a lot of supernatural in there. There are miracles. There’s the person of Jesus who’s making all of these claims. How were any of those hitting you? Were you just looking at them with kind of a pragmatic, critical eye or dismissing or are just saying that’s part of it? If, if there’s a God, those things are possible. How were you working through those?
Michael Guillen
41:26 – 46:13
That’s a great question. When we were reading Genesis. What struck me right off the bat, right off the bat in Genesis 1:1 was how different the Bible recounted the story of creation. How different the answer to my question, where did everything come from? The answer it offered me was so different from all the other religions that I had studied by then in this way. It didn’t. Even though. Yes. You know, the idea of a God, you know, speaking a universe. Yeah. I mean, that’s pretty wild, right? That’s pretty supernatural. But how do I want to put this? The way the Bible describes it was. Is very scientific and it’s very reportorial, so. Because by then I was not only a scientist, but I was developing a pretty big reputation as a journalist, so reporting stories, reporting science. And I’m thinking, ‘wow, this, this sounds like a news report. This doesn’t sound like, ‘okay, God A, conflicted with God B, and one swallowed up the other one and spit out people.’ And, you know, which, as I said earlier, sounded very fanciful to me. Supernatural, yes, but more than just supernatural. It was fanciful. And I hope I’m explaining this well, but when my first impression. I’m just answering your question. In Genesis 1, it was just different. It was just qualitatively different in how it reported where everything came from. And that caught my attention. It wasn’t enough to, you know, like, oh, okay, I’m buying into this. No, but it was just something like, ding, check. That’s something very different than anything else I’ve seen.
And by then, also, I was far enough into my studies that I was beginning to realize just how supernatural the universe actually is. And that’s a whole different discussion we can have. But by then, even beyond the Big Bang theory, we were talking about dark matter. And then dark energy hadn’t been discovered by then, but already dark matter was something very interesting. But that was something that was discovered back in 1933 by an astronomer, Swiss American astronomer, named Fritz Zwicky. It’s a great name, right, Fritz Zwicky. Anyway, so Zwicky studied the rotation speed of galaxy clusters, and he noticed that they are spinning faster than they ought to. And the explanation, the only. Well, there’s always more than one explanation, but the most credible explanation, and it’s been confirmed now quite a bit, many as many years later, nearly 100 years later now, right. That the reason why they’re spinning faster than they should be is because there’s matter there that’s driving this the faster speed that’s invisible to us. So, we call it dark. He called it Dunkel materia. That’s German for dark matter. Dunkel materia.
And so, I was just studying that in my classes as a grad student. So, you see, I was almost living two lives. One in the classroom, where I’m studying more and more and more and more and more and more about the universe. And then this kind of extracurricular activity, this spiritual journey I was on. And so, the two were constantly communicating. It was like reading the Bible. What is that saying about the science? What is the science saying about the Bible? So there was at a very interesting point in my life because it was almost like stereo. It was like I had stereo headphones on. And so, by then, the idea of supernatural wasn’t scaring me so much anymore. Because, hey, if you tell me that the universe I’m studying is 95% invisible to me, well, that’s supernatural because. Right. One of the big criticisms people have of God is while you’re praying to an invisible man in the sky, and I’m thinking, ‘well, I’m studying a universe that’s 95% invisible to me. How dumb is that? That I mean, you know, so.
So, I had these stereo headphones. And I’ve never actually described it that way. For the first time in my mind, I realized now that’s what was going on in my life there. I had this religious journey and then this scientific journey. And what I was asking myself, because I was the guy in between the two headphones, is, ‘well, does this jibe with this? Does this jive with this?’ And what I was when I started reading the Bible with Laurel, I was thinking, this is interesting. This is, like, there’s not as much dissonance between the two that I was experiencing with the other religions.
Michael Guillen
46:13 – 48:33
But the really, the big point is when we finished the Old Testament and got into the New Testament, and I’ll never forget that for as long as I live, when I heard this character Jesus, speaking in the Bible, that I’m thinking, who talks like the first shall be last. Love your enemies like you love your friends. I’m like, this is backwards. Who talks like that? And I’m thinking, that was that headphone and the other headphone, I’m learning what we call duality in physics and quantum mechanics and saying, well, hard like a rock and soft like a wave. It can be both at the same time thinking, what? Oh, so the language of quantum mechanics is as upside down as the language of Jesus. And I’m thinking, now this is something I need to pay attention to because I’ve never run across this before in any previous religion that I immersed myself in. This was a horse of a different color. Again, it wasn’t enough. It wasn’t enough for me to go praise Jesus, Hallelujah, you know, but it was enough to say, you know, I need to check this out again. Both hands, both feet. I never do anything halfway way. And by the end of the Bible, I felt I have to take this at least seriously. I’m not willing to say this is the truth, that the Bible is speaking truth, but boy, it’s like a hammer over the head. And so many years after that, I just started studying the Bible more, getting into depth, going back to the spiral with the questions, finding honest answers. And then, you know, it was probably right around the year 2000, when I wrote that book, Can a Smart Person Believe in God? I decided, no, this is how I want to live. But what I discovered, Jana, was not only did I become a Christian at that point and said, this is the worldview that makes the most sense to me. This is the one worldview that I have ever encountered that answers my tough questions and offers me honest answers and verifiable answers, answers that are completely consistent with my science, but even take my science to the next level, and it’s very exciting.
Michael Guillen
48:33 – 52:38
Even now, as I speak to you, it’s a journey. I’m not like, at the end of my journey. It’s like, okay, well, that’s it, you’re a Christian, Goodbye. No, I’m on my journey still. This last time I read the Bible, it was deeper than ever. Every time I read the Bible, it just gets deeper and deeper. My understanding of it gets deeper and it’s more eye opening every single time. And it’s exciting for me. But what I discovered in my journey is that there’s a difference between deciding that this is the truth and surrendering to it. And that didn’t happen until years later, even after I professed being a Christian. I’m just one person, not particularly special, who just decided to ask questions, tough questions, and demand honest answers. And I’ve learned a lot in my journey and the journey isn’t over. And now I’d like to just share what I’ve learned in the hope that it might help you on your journey. And if it doesn’t, I still wish you well. I’m not angry at atheists. I don’t hate atheists I don’t hate Buddhists, I don’t hate.
Quite the opposite. We’re called to love. And really I honestly, if you want to describe me in a nutshell, I’m someone who strives to speak truth with love. I believe speaking truth with love is what Jesus calls us to do. Truth without love, that’s going to alienate people. I think at least half the atheists out there are people who were spoken truth to without love by Christians. They were just alienated and they won’t come back. They just, they hate Christians because of how they were treated by them. But it’s also the flip side and we’re seeing that in spades in society today. Love without truth is as undesirable. You know, there’s a kind of misguided sentimentality, a kind of misguided tolerance, a misguided love. And there are so many people today, so many people. Not just young people, old people too. I get them all. I have a following, young, old, women, men, all over the world. I have people following me all over the world. And I find old people just as misguided as young people. To be honest with you, it’s kind of sad, but they have worldviews that are so misguided that they’re going to have an experience, whether it’s going to be a diagnosis or they’re going to lose a loved one, God forbid, or their house is going to burn down or their favorite candidate is not going to win the election and suddenly they’re going to discover that their worldview has struck an iceberg. I am so certain about what I believe. I’m about as certain minded a Christian as you’re probably going to find on planet Earth because I’ve discovered the truths in the Bible stand the test of time and they stand the scrutiny of modern science. So I’m not sitting here in fear of an iceberg, but I’m just being honest with you. And that’s what I think all of us are supposed to do. That’s what the Bible says. Discern the spirits. Always, always question your worldview. Have I got it right? You always have to allow for the possibility that your worldview can be wrong. But right now, I am very much at peace with my worldview. I live in faithfulness to my worldview because I know the God I worship. And my savior Jesus Christ has made himself known to me in my life in the most profound ways. We haven’t even gotten into it, We don’t have time here. But I know what I believe and why I believe it. But it’s been the result of a very long and winding journey. And all I want to do is share what I’ve learned with others. Take it or leave it.
Jana Harmon
52:38 – 53:57
Yeah, it’s a beautiful journey. It is a long and winding road oftentimes, isn’t it? But what I think I appreciate about your story is way back when, when you were a Cornell student and you realized that there was something amiss, that there was a question that was being unanswered, and that you were willing to go and search for an answer. Even then, of course, you know, you’ve been curious your whole life. Like you say, all your life. And it will never end. And that’s okay. But there are those who are sitting here listening or maybe walking and listening or whatever it is they’re doing, and they’re thinking, you know, things don’t make sense in my own worldview, in my own world. But things seem to make sense, they seem to line up for you, Dr. G., that you feel very confident that you’ve done the hard work to find the answers. If someone is saying, ‘okay, I need it. I need some of my answers, my questions answered.’ Where would they go? What do you recommend in terms of finding truth, finding Christ, finding a substance to a worldview that they can feel confident in, like you have.
Michael Guillen
53:57 – 55:06
The long answer is, do what I did. Just explore all the religions, explore them all. But I don’t think most people are willing to put that kind of effort into it. I mean, I think back. I mean, my gosh, it’s just years of questioning and exploring. I don’t think most people are willing to do that. So, the short answer is that if you want to understand where I’m coming from, then crack open the Bible. I tell people who are seeking what they can do to find answers to their questions. Number one, ask your questions. Don’t let anybody tell you not to ask them. And if you want to understand what I have discovered in my journey, then crack open the Bible. And I recommend that, because unless you do, you’re never going to own your worldview. You’re never going to understand what you believe and why you believe it. And the Bible says, be prepared to explain what you believe to anyone who asks. And I’m prepared because I did the homework. So I don’t know. I hope that makes sense to you, Jana, but there is no simple way. If you want to own your worldview, you got to work for it, you got to do the homework, period. There’s no shortcut.
Jana Harmon
55:06 – 55:18
Absolutely. That’s for. For all of us, right? Parents, children. So many of us have just inherited our worldview. They may know what we are, what they believe, but not why.
Michael Guillen
55:21 – 55:47
And they’ll hate science because they see science as somehow threatening their weak faith, because their faith is on sand. It’s a house built on sand. And they see science as kind of the hurricane that threatens. Because they don’t know how to answer the questions that their professors are going to ask them in college, or they’re not going to be able to answer the questions that a rabid, hostile, hateful atheist is going to ask them.
Jana Harmon
55:47 – 56:10
I’ve just so enjoyed not only hearing your story, your experience, but also your very deep wisdom. It comes from a place like we talked about before, a place of just being tested. Tested not only for yourself, but in the line of fire of those who’ve come after you.
Jana Harmon
56:11 – 57:05
And. And it’s very clear that you know whose you are and why you believe what you believe in, that science and faith go hand in hand together. That scripture, the book of nature, and the book of scripture are complementary. They’re friends. They’re not foes. Right? That we don’t have to be threatened by any of that. And that actually, the Christian worldview provides so much more. Like you said before, the scientific or just the materialistic, naturalistic worldview is a very small box in light of all of reality. There’s mystery there. And God is the author of all. And we don’t have to be afraid because we know who the source is of everything. Oh, I love your story. Yes.
Michael Guillen
57:05 – 59:05
Well, thank you. Amen. And I just want to finish channel by, because I really feel like you speak about my wisdom, but I don’t. I just really want to thank God that he used Laurel so many years ago to open my eyes to the truth. And I want to thank my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for loving me more than I deserve. The life I’m living now is the best life I’ve ever lived. I thought when I went to grad school that I was living the life, right? The best life possible. I was becoming a scientist, the fulfillment of my dreams, and God and Jesus has opened my eyes to a universe and to a truth that I was blind to as a young man. And now I’m living That life filled with truth and God’s love. And I just can’t thank him and Jesus enough. I thank God and Jesus every day. And I want to thank you, Jana, for giving me this opportunity again just to share what I’ve learned. I’m not trying to persuade anybody to any to believe anything. That’s not what I’m called to do. I’m just here to share my story as honestly as I can, with love, as much love as I can muster. And I really want to talk to your viewers directly. Whatever you’re thinking, whatever question might be confusing you, there are answers. But you got to do the homework. And I want to encourage you to ask tough questions and to demand honest answers to open your mind. Most of the universe is invisible to us. Most of truth is invisible to us. So it requires faith at some point. And I lived for a long time by the motto seeing is believing. But now I understand that the best motto to live by is believing is seen. So God bless you and God bless you. Jana, thank you for inviting me on your program. I really enjoyed our talk.
Jana Harmon
59:05 – 01:00:30
It’s such a privilege to have you on, Dr. G. Truly. I know so many people are going to be blessed and challenged by what they’re hearing, but I, I know that, that you have not only provided beautiful witness here in testimony, but like you say, you have incredible resources that speak very deeply to these questions that not only you had to move through, but you’ve also explained them beautifully in your writings. And so, I would really encourage people to go get those books like Believing is Seeing is just a really wonderful explanation. And you’re just such a wonderful storyteller as well. It’s so inviting for anyone to come and see. And so, thank you for the work that you’ve done, the work that you’re doing, continuing to do all of your writing and you’re speaking and you’re an incredible resource for not only people who are in the church and wanting to stand on that solid rock, but for people who are searching as well. And I also just again, just appreciate your tone and your desire to present truth in love, because that is really the personification of Christ, that’s the Holy Spirit, spirit of working in and through you in that way. So, thank you for that.
Michael Guillen
01:00:31 – 01:00:34
You’re welcome. And to God alone be the glory. Thank you.
Jana Harmon
01:00:34 – 01:01:32
You’re welcome. Thanks for tuning into eX-skeptic to hear Dr. Michael Guillen’s story. We hope it’s helped you as you consider your own or others’ beliefs to learn more about his work and explore his amazing resources. Be sure to check out the show notes if you have any questions or feedback about today’s episode. Again, we’d love to hear from you. Feel free to reach out via email at info@exskeptic.org. This podcast is part of the CS Lewis Institute podcast network. If you enjoyed this episode, we would appreciate it if you could follow, rate, review, and share it with your friends and social network. Your support helps us to reach more listeners with these powerful stories of transformation. Join us next time where you’ll hear another unlikely story of belief. Until then, keep asking the big questions, stay curious, and take your next step towards discovery of what is true and real, what is worthy of your faith and belief.
