Dr. Tom Rudelius is a theoretical physicist whose research spans string theory, cosmology, and quantum field theory. With degrees from both Cornell and Harvard, and faculty credentials at Princeton, Berkeley, and Durham University, his life has been shaped by rigorous logic and scientific precision.
Faith, for most of his life, seemed unnecessary—perhaps even irrelevant. But beneath the surface of academic achievement and intellectual certainty, deeper questions about meaning, morality, and mortality began to emerge. What began as quiet doubt slowly became a pursuit of something more—a search that would challenge everything he thought he knew about science, truth, and the human condition.
And then, an unexpected conversation cracked the door open.
Guest Bio:
Dr. Tom Rudelius is a theoretical physicist specializing in string theory, quantum field theory, and early universe cosmology. He earned his bachelor’s degrees in statistical science, mathematics, and physics from Cornell University, followed by a Master’s and Ph.D. in physics from Harvard University in 2017. After completing his doctorate, Dr. Rudelius conducted postdoctoral research at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton, New Jersey, from 2017 to 2020. He then continued his postdoctoral work at the University of California, Berkeley. In the fall of 2023, he joined Durham University in England as a professor of physics. Tom speaks frequently on topics related to science and faith and is also an avid sports fan.
Resources Mentioned:
Tom’s Resources:
• Book: Chasing Proof, Finding Faith
• Website: https://tomrudelius.wordpress.com
• Twitter/X: @RudeliusTom
Larry’s Recommended Resources:
• Letters to a Skeptic, Greg Boyd
Connect with eX-skeptic:
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Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/exskeptic
Twitter: http://x.com/exskeptic
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@exskeptic
Email info: info@exskeptic.org
Episode Transcript
Tom Redulius
00:00 – 00:38
Walking the journey of science and faith, I don’t find them to be two totally separate and incompatible approaches to the same sorts of questions. What I’ve rather found is that they’re actually very similar approaches to very different questions. You know, the sorts of questions I deal with in science are things about trying to understand, how the universe has come to be. And I would say that the sorts of questions, questions that I find answers to in faith are questions about meaning and purpose. You know, why is there a universe at all? Why does it exist? Does it have any meaning behind it?
Jana Harmon
00:43 – 02:35
Hello, and welcome to eX-skeptic where we hear unlikely stories of belief. I’m your host, Jana Harmon, and this podcast uncovers the unexpected journeys of former skeptics and atheists who once rejected faith only to find themselves embracing belief in God and Christianity, sometimes against everything they once thought possible. Through each episode of eX-skeptic, we step inside the minds and hearts of those who once dismissed faith, tracing their doubts, struggles and pivotal moments of change. Whether you’re skeptical or curious, these stories will challenge your thinking and open new possibilities. Have you ever questioned the existence of God? Wondered whether or not Christianity is just another religion among many? Or thought faith was simply wishful thinking rather than grounded in reason? You’re not alone. Many have wrestled with these very questions, challenging what they thought was true, only to uncover something they never expected. Today, we explore the journey of former atheist Dr. Tom Richard Rudelius, a theoretical physicist who pursues truth with the precision of a scientist, weighing evidence and seeking the best explanation for reality. Highly educated and deeply analytical, he once believed that religion couldn’t be tested, that it was merely a collection of moral principles rather than something real, something verifiable. But what happens when someone like Tom is confronted with the falsifiable claims of Christianity, and more than that, when he is faced with the profound truths about Jesus and about himself. I hope you’ll come along to hear Tom’s intellectual and personal journeying of moving from atheism to belief. Welcome to eX-skeptic. Tom, it’s so great to have you with me today.
Tom Redulius
02:35 – 02:38
Thanks, Jana. Good to be here. Good to be with you.
Jana Harmon
02:38 – 03:04
You are in a sunny, maybe not so sunny, England. As a professor there in Durham University, you come with a lot of academic cred. You have quite the resume, quite the background in academics and study. Would you give us a sense, Tom, of your specialty in study and where you’ve studied and the kind of work that you’re doing?
Tom Redulius
03:04 – 03:39
So currently, as you mentioned, I’m a professor at Durham University. I’m a mathematical physicist. So my research deals with string theory, cosmology, quantum field theory. My educational history. I was a triple major at Cornell University. I studied math, physics and statistics there. After that I did a PhD in theoretical physics at Harvard. Then I did postdocs at the Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton and the University of California, Berkeley before I found my way over here.
Jana Harmon
03:40 – 04:19
That is quite impressive, I must say. I must just sit back and appreciate that for a moment. I don’t know that I’ve ever known anyone so educated in the Ivy League system, in the US at least. It is quite impressive! So kudos to you. That’s quite an accomplishment. So let’s get into your story because you’re sitting here as a former skeptic, you who now professes faith in Christ. Let’s start at the beginning of your story in terms of your family and your family history and heritage. Talk with me about your growing up years and whether or not you went to church or was God any part of your world or the Bible or what you thought about all of that.
Tom Redulius
04:20 – 05:37
Yeah, so in a word, the answer to those last questions is no. Religion, faith, God just wasn’t a huge part of my upbringing. So I was raised in a very loving family, but also a very non religious family along with my twin brother Steve. He’ll play an important role in sort of my entire story. But yeah, we were raised to believe in science, we were raised to care about academics and I always really loved sports, even from a very young age. So those are really the things that mattered most to me. But I never went to church – maybe once or twice my entire childhood with my grandparents usually. Never read the Bible. Most of what I knew about religion honestly came from watching cartoons. So I just kind of always figured I’m basically a good person. And I thought that’s really what religion is all about, is just telling us and teaching us to be good moral people, to lead happy lives. And I always kind of figured I’m a pretty moral person, I’m leading a pretty happy life. So religion just didn’t seem like something that was really important to me.
Jana Harmon
05:39 – 05:57
So you grew up, even through your teenage years, high school years as it was just something that other people did, I presume. And what did you think that was? Was it a hobby? Was it something that was serious? I mean, was it even worth considering or not?
Tom Redulius
05:58 – 06:59
Yeah, I guess maybe the main impression I got from my friends who, whose families grew up going to church was just that it was very boring. That was probably the main impression that I had, was that it was just sort of a place that some of my friends got dragged to on Sunday mornings that they didn’t especially enjoy, that they didn’t especially get a lot out of. So it seemed, I guess, more like a chore than anything else. You know, I wasn’t really hostile towards religion. I didn’t hate my friends or something because they went to church. In fact, if anything, I was a little bit curious. There were a couple of times where I asked my parents about going to church, but we just never really did. It was never part of our routine. It was never something that really was so important to our family. So I guess I had sort of this curiosity about it, but also, yeah, this kind of this impression that I’m kind of glad I just get to stay home and watch cartoons on Sunday mornings.
Jana Harmon
07:00 – 07:23
So you said growing up, one of your passions was science. And in terms of you knew that you kind of didn’t believe in God or weren’t hostile to it or anything. Did you get a sense of what you did believe in terms of a worldview, naturalism, or what science taught, or what did that look like? Did you consider that?
Tom Redulius
07:24 – 09:02
Yeah, so in retrospect, I didn’t consider it all that much. And I think that was really one of the first things that started to change on my journey to faith is I started to realize that I’d sort of just adopted this worldview without even realizing that it was a worldview. Sort of thinking, this is just common sense. This is just, you know, the truth of it. And something I started to realize is actually a lot of what I believed really came from tradition. It really came from what my parents had taught me, what my school had taught me. It’s sort of this idea that life is about being a good person, so morality matters and being. It’s about having fun and enjoying life. But I guess I never really questioned why. Why are those the most important things in life? Where does this sense of morality come from? What defines what is good versus what is evil? So I guess it was, yeah, sort of just an internalized indifference towards religion. I’m not even sure. I don’t think calling myself an atheist wouldn’t have probably been right, but I don’t think really an agnostic would have been right either. It was more just sort of apathetic towards the whole thing, that what mattered in life was being successful and being happy and being moral. And science, I guess, is sort of the ultimate source of truth about the world. I wouldn’t have been able to put that into words back then. That’s something that I can only sort of say, looking back, because at the time just didn’t really think too much about all these big questions.
Jana Harmon
09:02 – 09:13
Right, right. So I think that. Or it sounds like when you engrossed in, well, athletics and in science, you’re just busy living life. Right?
Tom Redulius
09:13 – 09:14
I think that’s exactly right, yeah.
Jana Harmon
09:15 – 09:49
And oftentimes that’s the case where we don’t step back and ask those bigger questions. So as you were pursuing your life in science, it sounds like that was a pretty steady and directed path that you’ve taken. Did any of questions ever arise with regard to science itself or the foundations of science? Did God play a part in that? Or whether or not science answered all of the questions that you were looking at, or how did that look for you?
Tom Redulius
09:49 – 12:05
I think that where I maybe first started to notice even maybe a bit of a disconnect with the worldview that I believed and what I could actually support on the basis of that worldview. I remember one time when I was in high school where one of the other students in my homeroom class was discussing the Make a Wish foundation, and another student said about this foundation which seeks to help patients, kids with terminal diseases, to achieve some goal or some wish that they want to achieve. And the student in my homeroom said, what’s the point? They’re just going to die anyway. And of course, like everyone else in the class, I was like, oh, wow, that’s terrible. How could you say something like that? But something I noticed is that no one really had a rational argument against that, that ultimately, if naturalism is true, it really is true that all of us are going to die and that’ll be the end of us. And it does raise this question of what does it really matter what we’ve done in the meantime, if that’s just the end of the human story, the sun just swells up and swallows up the earth and that’s the end of everything. There sort of wasn’t really an explanation of why we should behave in a moral way of why we should, you know, have these virtues, if that is ultimately the end of all of us, if death is ultimately coming for all of us. So I remember sort of noticing that, but also just kind of pushing it down, you know, assuming that, well, that’s not something I really need to think about right now. And it was maybe just easier and simpler to not really have to deal with some those big questions. But that was a time where I started to realize that the science that I know and love maybe doesn’t help so much with some of these questions of morality and purpose and meaning.
Jana Harmon
12:06 – 13:02
So you had started to recognize that there were perhaps some things that science, some questions that science couldn’t answer. But it again sounds like you were on a full steam track ahead in your academic world and that you were continuing to pursue science at some very, very deep levels. You mentioned the word naturalism for a moment. Were you aware that naturalism was the basis behind or an, an atheistic or not, or a godless perspective in a sense, and what that meant? I mean, you had that touch point of well, maybe death is all there is. Well, maybe there is no objective morality to, you know, no oughtness about those moral statements that were made or not. Were you starting to recognize that more as you continued to pursue science?
Tom Redulius
13:03 – 15:23
Yeah, I think I was. But to be honest, I think I didn’t realize this nearly as much as my twin brother did. So maybe this is a good time to talk a little bit about his story because I think without his journey to faith, I probably wouldn’t have subsequently had a journey to faith. So my twin brother, his name is Steve, as I mentioned, during our senior year of high school, really the summer after our senior year of high school, before college, he started having sort of these obsessive thoughts about death or he just realized like, hey, someday I’m going to die and that’s going to be the end of me. And so he started actually like looking into religion for the first time, looking into different religions and what they said about the afterlife. And what he kind of came to this conclusion is that nothing was really super satisfying because either you have naturalism, which essentially just says you’re going to die and that’s the end of you, or you have these religious ideas about eternal life, about an afterlife, life beyond death. And the problem was that none of them seemed reasonable to him. So my brother all of a sudden sort of found himself in this sort of unstable situation where he really wanted there to be something beyond death, so he really wanted an afterlife to exist. On the other hand, he didn’t really believe in any of the religious traditions that would point to such an afterlife to him. They all seemed sort of unreasonable. And so that was really the thing that I think got him starting to look deeper into these questions of faith, sort of with this hope that maybe there could be something more to this world than Naturalism, but also with a skepticism that there actually was. I think that he was honestly asking a lot of the questions that I probably should have been asking, but that I was maybe either too busy or in some ways, perhaps too afraid to ask because I wasn’t sure if I would like the answers.
Jana Harmon
15:24 – 15:37
So what did he do with that dilemma between religion not being true and naturalism not providing satisfying answers? How did he continue to pursue answers to that big question?
Tom Redulius
15:38 – 18:09
So I think the key thing in his story was another character coming into the scene, which is his friend, our friend Matt. So our freshman year of college, I went to Cornell. As I mentioned, my brother went to Northwestern, just outside of Chicago. And his freshman year, he met a guy in his dorm. His name was Matt, who was maybe the first really serious thinking, outspoken Christian that either of us had known. I’d known some Christians in, you know, growing up in my school, but Matt was sort of different in that he was just. I mean, he was an evangelical. He wasn’t afraid to, like, talk to people about his faith and to try to get them to believe it. So it was conversation with Matt that was Steve and a bunch of other guys from the floor where Matt basically outed himself as a Christian. And Steve and a lot of the other guys on the floor sort of had these skeptical questions for Matt. You know, what do you think about this? You know, how could you believe in that? And sort of, as the conversation went on for a couple of hours, guys slowly trickled out of the dorm room. But my brother was sort of like the last one there because, as I say, he’s having all these internal questions and all these – this dilemma of, like, you know, I’d really like to believe in something more, but I don’t. And so for him, Matt was sort of like this lifeline almost. And he kind of told Matt afterwards, you know, I’m not really sure if I believe all this, but I would really like to. And so that was really the start of their relationship and of their discussions where they would start to talk about all these bigger questions, sort of to my brother’s surprise, Matt had thought a lot more about this than he had. And in particular, his answers, although maybe not entirely compelling, were also surprisingly not stupid. Like, it was clear that religion wasn’t just this, you know, turn your brain off and believe sort of thing that my brother and I had maybe internalized growing up. And so it was largely through those conversations with Matt and some of the other guys that Matt introduced my brother to that ultimately, he came to faith.
Jana Harmon
18:09 – 18:32
I think it’s easy to put all religions in one basket and say they’re all nonsense. You know, I wish they were true, but they’re not. Yeah. Something that Matt presented about Christianity that helped Steve understand that Christianity somehow is set apart as something different, even rational or evidential or falsifiable.
Tom Redulius
18:34 – 20:41
Yeah. So I think one of Steve’s biggest moments, and, you know, I don’t know every conversation they had, every question that they discussed, but I think one of Steve’s biggest moments was doing a Bible study for the first time. It actually wasn’t with Matt. It was with another friend, yet another character in the story named Drew. So Drew was an intern with a campus ministry, so he had recently graduated from Northwestern. And so I think Matt put Steve and Drew in touch. And so Drew sat down one day with Steve to do a Bible study. And they looked at the Gospel of John. I think it’s chapter two, where Jesus turns water into wine. And I guess there were kind of a few maybe stereotypes that Steve had of Christianity that really started to break when he read this passage. What that particular passage shows is that Jesus isn’t sort of the typical religious person. The stereotype that Steve and I had definitely internalized of religious people as being sort of narrow minded and judgmental and not very fun. And what you kind of see in that passage of John is that Jesus in many ways is actually sort of sets himself up against the typical religious person that he’s instead standing up for, sort of like the little guy, the outcast, the forgotten people. And so I think it was probably seeing and learning about Jesus that was the main thing in convincing Steve that maybe my perception of Christianity in particular and religion in general in general isn’t really right. That isn’t really what this whole Jesus thing is all about.
Jana Harmon
20:42 – 20:59
So then did he continue to pursue truth? Or who is this Jesus character? Was he reading the Bible? How did he become convinced that it was true and that the Bible was even a worthy text of belief?
Tom Redulius
21:00 – 21:58
Yeah, so I think it was sort of this, you know, this combination of conversations with Matt and with Drew and with other people reading some of the books that they had about Christianity, talking, you know, investigating its claims. Some of these apologetics books. One that he read that I later read that was really helpful was this book, Letters from a Skeptic, which is a conversation between a skeptical father and his pastor son. And so there was sort of this learning more about Christianity, but then also just directly sort of experiencing Christianity, reading the Bible, going to church. So I think it was, it was sort of this combination of a lot of things. It was a long process, but after a number of months, I think it was on Easter Sunday 2009, my, my brother just decided he was a Christian. And so that’s, that’s when he started talking with me about it.
Jana Harmon
21:59 – 22:03
How did you feel about his turn of faith or turn towards faith?
Tom Redulius
22:04 – 22:56
I felt sort of betrayed, honestly. So my brother has, has always been my best friend and up to that point in life, our, our lives had really revolved around the same things, which were school and sports. And so for him to become all of a sudden a Christian, I too sort of had this idea of Christians as being narrow minded, judgmental, you know, kind of weirdos that I wasn’t really sure I wanted to be a part of. And I wasn’t really sure if I was going to enjoy this sort of new version of my brother. So, you know, I wasn’t about to like, you know, disown him as my brother or anything, but I was definitely, I guess I was worried that he might do that with me.
Jana Harmon
22:57 – 23:32
Right, right. Did he try to approach you with regard to what do you believe and about your own understanding of Christianity or Jesus or any of that? I wonder. You know, sometimes it’s the hardest thing between family members to approach these kinds of things. But I presume, like you said, you felt betrayed, that it can add an emotional element there that is so much deeper and I guess palpable and sensitive to talk about things like this, especially with some people in your own family.
Tom Redulius
23:33 – 24:36
Yeah, definitely. I think it’s a testament both to my brother and to Matt and Drew that he really wasn’t afraid to broach this subject with me. Like, almost immediately after he became a Christian, he started talking with me about, you know, what do you believe about all these things. He tried to give me a copy of the New Testament and some of these books about Christianity – Letters from a Skeptic. And I told him, look, Steve, I have trouble finding time to read books that I want to read, much less time to read books that I don’t want to read. That’s kind of just where I was with it again. It just didn’t seem like something that was super important to me. It wasn’t something that I really wanted to completely change my life for. But at the same time, I also didn’t want to lose my twin brother, like, as my best friend. So there was, there was that tension that was probably the thing that got me to start investigating with him.
Jana Harmon
24:38 – 25:04
So did you just put those books aside for a while or just to appease, like you say, the relationship you did due diligence and you were willing to open, or I just wonder how that goes, because I’m sure there’s so many people listening, thinking, okay, my brother or my sister or my mom or my dad, you know, and it’s just really hard to go forward in those kinds of stories.
Tom Redulius
25:06 – 26:38
Yeah, I think I did sort of, like, shelve them for a while. Like, it’s not like, you know, I was really excited to learn more or to talk more about these things, at least not at first. It was, I think, really when we were both home for summer break, we were together over the summer that I started trying to maybe be just a bit more of a part of this newfound religious life that my brother was leading. So, in particular, he wanted to try to find a church in our hometown where we were staying over the summer, which is the twin cities, Minneapolis, St. Paul and so I went to church with him a few times that summer. It was strange, but it was also an opportunity for me to at least try to be with my brother. Even though I wasn’t really sure. I definitely wasn’t sure I believed everything, but I also wasn’t sure I really wanted to. But I knew that I did want to be able to keep spending time with my brother. So I think it was there, going to church, talking about church afterwards with him, that I did eventually just start down, start reading some of these books, reading the Bible. It was a gradual process, but it was. It really, I think, yeah, came out from just wanting to be closer to my brother.
Jana Harmon
26:38 – 26:54
So it was a good motivation, but it caused you to think about some things. You brought up two different books there. The Letters to a Skeptic by Greg Boyd is a really interesting read. Can you tell a little bit more about that and why that might have related to that?
Tom Redulius
26:55 – 28:50
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So, I mean, yeah, so as I mentioned, it’s a correspondence between a father and his son. And the son is a pastor, the father is a skeptic. And so it’s this real correspondence. Right? So I think that’s one nice thing, is that you’re not getting sort of like a strawman argument for the skeptic or from the Christian. Like, these are people really writing down what they actually believe. And I think something that I noticed reading it is when I would read the skeptical father’s letters, I found myself really resonating. You know, he is a very normal guy, sort of raised in a culture similar to me. And the questions he has are really the questions I think, that I and sort of we all have. Why does a good God allow suffering? How can you believe in miracles and believe in science? And I remember as I read the Son Greg’s response, I didn’t always find it compelling. Sometimes I found his answers a little bit strange. But it was clear that he had really thought a lot about these things. And again, it was, to use a phrase already used, it was surprisingly not stupid. Right? Like, it seemed, contrary to what I expected, that Christianity did have this internal coherence, that it made sense, at least the way that he put it. And so, you know, I didn’t finish that book and decide, okay, now I believe this is true. But I did feel that Christianity maybe could appeal more to my intellectual side than I had previously expected. So for me, that was, I think, a really helpful book in being able to address a lot of the questions that I had.
Jana Harmon
28:53 – 29:20
Broke down some negative stereotypes you had, and perhaps built a little plausibility of the intellectual integrity of Christianity. Now, as you open the Bible, I presume you had some preconceived notions of what the Bible was before you read it for yourself. I’m curious what you thought of the Bible before opening it, and then what were your impressions once you started actually looking at it for yourself.
Tom Redulius
29:21 – 31:26
So I think a lot of my preconceived notions are a little bit embarrassing. As I look back, one thing I thought was that the Bible was written, like, in Old English, I guess, that, you know, like, culturally, what I had internalized was the King James Version of the Bible. And, you know, I don’t have anything inherently against the King James Version of the Bible, but I think what it had done for me, it had sort of given me this impression that the Bible itself is outdated, that it’s something that belongs to yesteryear, that old, old people like going to church. But, you know, we young, modern, enlightened individuals, we don’t need this stuff anymore. So the version of the Bible that my brother first gave me, that I first started reading was, was not the King James Version. It was a modern translation. So I think it’s a small thing, but it was in some ways kind of a big thing that it was written in modern language that felt like it was more relevant to my life. The other thing probably the bigger thing, I guess I had always thought that the Bible was basically a list of rules, a list of do’s and don’ts. I’d encountered, say, the Ten Commandments, and I probably could have even named a number of them at the time. And that was kind of like the extent of my religious knowledge. I could have told you some of the Ten Commandments, but the New Testament that my brother gave me, I was kind of surprised to learn that there are some rules in it, but overwhelmingly it’s narrative and letters. And I think sort of like my brother, the most compelling thing about it was just being able to read the stories of Jesus. I’d heard things about Christianity and what it said and what it taught, but there was something about the sort of reading these stories of Jesus, reading what he did and what he said that made it a lot more appealing to me.
Jana Harmon
31:26 – 32:25
That’s a pretty significant, I think, paradigm shift there is, because it really is all about, it centers on the person of Christ and who he is. Right? He begs the question of us. Who do we think he is? Who do people think he is? And at the end of the day, your perception of him, I guess, was being changed through reading of the narratives of Jesus in the Gospels. Did you ever question the text itself in terms of is this a reliable text? You mentioned that you read a more modern translation. I think sometimes there’s an impression that sometimes more modern translations have just been copied over time and are unreliable in terms of truth and whether or not you should believe it. Did that ever cross your mind as a skeptic, or did it just ring true?
Tom Redulius
32:26 – 33:18
Yeah, I mean, I think I could kind of read it at two levels. One is reading it as a story, you know, and just taking it at face value the way I might read like Harry Potter or something, where I’m not really asking did this actually happen? Or I’m just trying to understand the characters and enter into that world. That’s where I found a lot of it really resonated with me at the level of a story. Then there was kind of the other question of, well, okay, is the story actually true? That I was a lot more skeptical of at first. And that’s where I did start reading some of this, these, like, apologetics books that my brother had and started learning more about Christianity. So I guess I sort of had that intellectual journey going on at the same time.
Jana Harmon
33:18 – 33:45
Yeah. And you had mentioned one of the Letters to the Skeptic that stood out to you, whether or not science and miracles can right cohere. And as a scientist reading the biblical text, there’s a lot of supernatural content. And of course, Jesus was a miracle worker, including the great miracle of him rising from the dead.
Tom Redulius
33:45 – 33:46
Yeah.
Jana Harmon
33:48 – 34:04
So did that aspect. Were you able to move through that content and go, okay, well, that might be true. If God exists, then miracles are possible? Or how did you work through that?
Tom Redulius
34:04 – 35:36
Yeah, yeah. That was, I think, one of the first things that really started to change about my worldview where coming in, I really did think that, like, miracles and science just were incompatible or at least, like, extraordinarily improbable. But I guess what I started to realize, kind of what you were just saying, is that if Christianity is true, it also brings with it a whole new understanding of what a miracle is. Because if atheism is true, then a miracle is really just like the most improbable thing that could ever happen. It is just a total breakdown of the laws of nature. But I wasn’t being asked to believe in that. What Christianity also brought with it was this idea of a God who could do miracles, who might have a reason, and especially, you know, in the climactic moment of history, in the resurrection, might have a very good reason for intervening in these laws and acting in supernatural ways. So I think that was one of the, maybe the first big things of my worldview that started to change where I said, okay, if God exists, then miracles are at least possible. And then there’s still the question, do I believe in these miracles, right? Did these actually take place? But at least I was starting to accept the possibility that at least miracles could, in principle, happen if there is a God.
Jana Harmon
35:38 – 36:21
So it sounds like you became more and more open towards the possibility of Christianity being true. You were willing to actually engage in books and in scripture, and it sounds like, again, negative stereotypes were being broken down. You were being introduced to something that is perhaps a little bit other than you thought it was. And it sounds like it might have been intriguing to you in some way. At first it was to kind of appease your brother, but then did it become a quest on your own that you began a diligent search because of your desire to know?
Tom Redulius
36:22 – 37:23
Yeah, it did. It did. And kind of the amazing thing was this whole time, my brother, like, he never really knew that that change had taken place for me, that it went from being sort of something that I just was doing, because why not? He wants to do it. I’ll tag along. To something that I was actually getting curious about. So when we both went back to school, we went our separate ways for our sophomore year of college. He told me later he just kind of thought, I guess Tom just isn’t really very interested in all of this religion and Christianity and God. He just thought I just wasn’t interested at all. But actually, I was. I had really started thinking a lot more about these things. The question had sort of taken hold of me, and I started to think of Christianity maybe not as being true, but at least as being reasonable and something that I needed to look more into.
Jana Harmon
37:25 – 37:28
So how did you pursue that question or that quest?
Tom Redulius
37:28 – 39:41
I didn’t pursue it the way I probably should have, that once we went back to school, I didn’t, like, find a church in Ithaca where I was going to college. I didn’t really do too much other than I kept reading the New Testament that my brother had given me, and I finished it. I actually finished reading it on Christmas Day of 2009. So I was still reading it, I was still thinking about it, but sort of, deep down, I was also kind of at this place where I wasn’t really ready to accept it at a personal heart level, even if I was starting to think of it as more intellectually plausible, maybe even the most intellectually plausible worldview. So there was still kind of this, like, switch that needed to flip where I went from saying, like, okay, this might be true, to saying, okay, this is how I, you know, I need to, like, reorient my life around this. And because that’s something else that I guess I’d really learned from seeing my brother and from talking to him is I kind of realized that Christianity, if true, can’t just be something that is something you think about, like, an hour a week when you enter church. Like, if it’s true, it really changes things, and it really changes us and how we should live our lives. And I was pretty happy with the way that I was living my life and the way that my life was going. You know, I wasn’t, like, doing all these, like, terrible things. Like, I didn’t view myself as this, like, horrific sinner, but I also just was kind of comfortable, I guess. And so I really needed something else to kind of like, give me that, to, like, shake me and kind of wake me up and get me to switch my allegiance.
Jana Harmon
39:43 – 40:49
Yeah. Well, what you’re talking about reminds me of CS Lewis when he talks about the Christianity. If it’s true, it’s of infinite importance. It’s not just moderately important or something you can just, like you say, just kind of put on the label and be done with it. I appreciate that you’re saying that you realized the implications of really believing and taking on that mantle and that importance of what Christianity is. It’s a gift, but there’s also a surrendering that goes along with it that requires all of you. And so I appreciate the fact that you understood that and you took that seriously, even though it sounds like there for a while, you just weren’t ready. So what did you do then? Did you live in this tension of, well, maybe it’s true. Maybe. I don’t know. Were you able to even embrace it and say, yes, I believe there is a God. I’m just not ready to go there yet? Did your brother know that you were making these steps forward?
Tom Redulius
40:50 – 45:51
He didn’t really know. I. I think I was sort of confused, to be honest, because I think part of me was ready to even identify as a Christian, but part of me also, as they say, was kind of just like, held back by the comfort of the life that I was living. So maybe this is where kind of the last big chapter of my conversion story comes in, with seemingly totally unrelated adventure, which was that I applied for some internships for the summer after my sophomore year of college, and I got a conditional offer from the National Security Agency or the NSA, contingent upon completing a polygraph test. Going into this polygraph, also known colloquially as a lie detector test, my feelings were kind of similar to my feelings towards faith and towards God and heaven, which was, hey, you know, I’m basically a good person. If there’s a heaven, I’ll probably go to it. And also, I’m basically a good person, so I shouldn’t have any trouble with this polygraph. Right? It’s sort of like, okay, you know, this is here to catch, like, really bad people and criminals and, like, spies. But it’s not, you know, I’m just the normal good kid. So I went into this test, and they fired it up, asked me these questions, and I realized pretty quickly that I was failing. And not only was I failing, but I was going to continue to fail, not only if I was lying, but just if I felt guilty about anything. So for about four hours, I shared with this polygrapher basically everything I could think of that I’d done wrong in my life. And for the first time, I guess I was really brought into awareness that deep down, I’m not as good of a person as I’d like to think I am. And this is something that I remember distinctly having a conversation with my brother Steve over the summer about this question of human nature. Like, are people mostly good? And in my view at the time was I said, you know, yeah, I mean, sure, there’s like, the really bad people in the world. There’s like, you know, the Hitlers of the world, but most people are just good people. And my brother said, like, know that people, you know, people are broken, that we’re in need of forgiveness, were in need of salvation. And I just didn’t agree with that at the time. And so fast forward to this polygraph. I kind of realized for the first time is I had to just sit there and list out all these things that I’d done wrong in my life. I realized, you know, deep down, actually I’m not as good of a person as I like to think I am. And also, probably no one. No one is, right? Like, I didn’t think, like, wow, man, I’m just so much worse than everyone else. It was sort of just like, well, I bet if anyone had to be in this situation and really look themselves in the eye and be completely honest about all their, you know, all their actions and all their thoughts and all the things that they don’t want to share about themselves, probably everyone would feel like a total failure. And so I think that’s where that half of the gospel message really made sense to me, that, that people are broken and in need of forgiveness. And that’s where consequently, the second half of the message, that there is a God who loves us, who gives us forgiveness through Jesus, that also really kind of made sense to me for the first time as something that I needed not just like, intellectually, but actually at a personal level. For me, I would say that that was kind of like the wake up call that I needed to go from just I think I’m starting to think Christianity is intellectually plausible to, okay, I think this is really like the call that I needed, the wake up call that I need to actually, like, live like this is true. And so for me, that’s sort of the moment that I at least attribute to being my moment of conversion, where I went from, from saying I’m not really sure to saying, well, I’m still not. Maybe I don’t, you know, it’s not like all my questions have been answered, but if this isn’t the moment, if this isn’t the, like, experience that I needed to change my allegiance, then nothing really is.
Jana Harmon
45:53 – 46:00
I love that. I think there’s probably nothing like being in a, I guess you were in somewhat of a secular confessional booth.
Tom Redulius
46:00 – 46:01
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Jana Harmon
46:02 – 47:24
When you’re trying to really recall everything that you’ve done in your life, that could be very sobering, I think. And obviously it was very humbling for you to be able to see your need for Jesus and his offer of grace and forgiveness. And how beautiful is that? You introduce your book Chasing Proof and Finding Faith with this concept that certainty is a bit elusive. That when you’re coming to a decision, like you came to a decision, not only intellectually but personally, that even there as a very erudite scientist who’s chasing proof, you want to know that there’s something about reality and the limitation of our own humanity, that in some ways there’s no way to absolutely know everything and be incredibly certain. I wonder if you could speak to that for just a minute about your decision making with regard to God’s existence and the truth of Christianity and who Jesus is and all of that with regard to this concept, this elusive concept of, well, I have to know for certain, or knowledge, you know, that kind of thing.
Tom Redulius
47:25 – 51:27
Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I think this is something that I understand better now having walked the journey of faith and the journey of science for a number of years. I think kind of the problem, the mistake I made was maybe coming into this whole question when I started to realize that this question matters. Is there a God? Is Christianity true? What is true about the world? What is the meaning and purpose of life? I think I had this idea that coming in, like, I need to find the, the answer, the, the proof. Right? The idea, like I need to be able to convince myself with absolute certainty that this is true or that that’s true. But what I came to realize and what I’ve come to realize even more is that I think they’re just, that sort of certainty just doesn’t really exist in any area of human knowledge. And that’s true of science as well. That really what, you know, what we get in science and what you get in I think any area of thought, whether that’s theology or philosophy or anything, is that there’s always going to be some amount of uncertainty. There’s always some leap of faith, if you will, that needs to be made between what you believe and how you’re going to live, that there’s lots of questions that, you know, deciding, like who to marry or something, right. That you can’t know for certain that this is the right person. But you kind of take the data that you have, you take the knowledge that you have, and you try to make the decision that makes the most sense. And then you have to make that at some point, you have to make that leap. The same thing is true, you know, with my science. When I write a paper, there’s oftentimes these arguments that rely on some assumptions, and I don’t know for certain if those are right. But you try to, you know, you try to make the most reasonable case you can, and then you’ve got to go with it, and then you try to defend it. That’s just, I think, how sort of life works. And I guess that’s where in that moment of choosing faith, that I guess what I came to the conclusion that the bridge of faith that I built was big enough and I could make that leap the rest of the way. That there was still, as I say, there were still these questions, you know, I didn’t like, have a perfect answer to. Why does a good God allow bad things to happen to people? And there are still questions to this day, you know, things that I have, mysteries about God and about faith that I wish I understood better. What the process, what really the whole process taught me is that there isn’t really an answer to these big questions that doesn’t rely on some level of faith that I’d grown up adopting this worldview, sort of thinking that this is just self definitely true. And once I started to question it, I realized actually, you know, this doesn’t stand up to. A lot of the thoughts that I’ve brought to the table don’t necessarily stand up to scrutiny either. There isn’t sort of a null hypothesis. There isn’t an obviously correct answer to all of these big questions. And I think what I decided after that polygraph is that the combination of all I’ve been learning along with now, my own personal experience of recognizing my own brokenness and my own need for forgiveness and grace, that Christianity was just close enough. It made the most sense. It was the thing that basically I couldn’t justify living any other way or believing any other thing. And so that’s where I guess I’d say I found enough certainty, I found enough certainty to make that decision.
Jana Harmon
51:27 – 51:48
You are also sitting as a very esteemed professor, very highly accomplished, highly educated academic who believes in God, who’s a scientist or physicist, thinker. What would you say to someone who says you can either believe in science or God, but you can’t believe in both?
Tom Redulius
51:49 – 53:20
So, yeah, I do run into that belief system sometimes. I guess what I’d say is that for me, I found that walking the journey of science and faith, I don’t find them to be two totally separate and incompatible approaches to the same sorts of questions. What I’ve rather found is that they’re actually very similar approaches to very different questions that, you know, the sorts of questions I deal with in science are things about trying to understand, you know, how the universe has come to be and laws of nature that describe it. And I would say that the sorts of questions that I find answers to in faith are questions about meaning and purpose. You know, why is there a universe at all? Why, why does it exist? Does it have any meaning behind it? And so for me, I’d say that the sort of the same approach that has led me to what I believe about my field in science has also led me to what I believe about faith and to my faith in God. And so I think that those two similar approaches can lead us to both science and faith. As long as we’re sort of using science to answer questions that science is good at answering and using faith to answer the sorts of questions that faith is good at answering.
Jana Harmon
53:20 – 53:59
On that, it sounds like it’s kind of this non overlapping magisterium where they answer different questions. But I’m curious, are there any realities of science that could point to, say, the singularity, for example, from a cosmological perspective, could that point to a beginning that perhaps might point to the need for a transcendent source? What I’m trying to ask is, is there anything in science, are they totally separate? Or are there observations within the scientific world that allow you to make assumptions or that have implications towards the possible existence of God?
Tom Redulius
54:00 – 57:34
Yeah, I don’t think they’re totally separate. I think that they’re maybe more separate than a lot of people think, but also not as divorced as some people think either. I think that for me, within my field of study, the fine tuning of the laws of nature for intelligent life is something that I think points towards the existence of God. It turns out that all these, these laws of physics, the standard models of particle physics and cosmology have these parameters like the mass of the electron or the mass of the proton and these sorts of things. And if you were to just change those parameters a little bit, you’d find a universe that doesn’t allow for life at all. And so some people, myself included, think that this is pointing towards some sort of intelligent designer that has sort of tuned these knobs exactly where they need to be in order to give rise to a universe with life, with intelligent life like us. So I think that there are arguments from science and maybe glimpses of the divine that we see in science. I also think we started talking earlier about miracles. I think miracles also represent sort of, maybe more of a direct connection between the scientific realm and the divine, the supernatural. Where we see, I think in moments in the story of Jesus, these times where the laws of nature break down. But I think it’s possible to have sort of a high view, science as being the thing that describes the world, you know, and nature 99.9% of the time, but also that there’s this larger, greater truth that can sometimes supersede those laws. I think something that, especially with miracles, I’ll say that I found compelling was I guess, coming to this realization that as an atheist back when I, back when I, you know, basically believed in naturalism, I think that miracles bothered me because I viewed them as sort of a breakdown of the way that the world was supposed to be. The world is supposed to follow these laws of nature. And miracles are just like, you know, it’s like that messing, it’s like science failing or something. But what I realized is that in Jesus’s framework, miracles don’t represent a breakdown of the laws of nature, but actually they represent a restoration of the world to the way that it’s supposed to be, that the world isn’t supposed to have evil. And so Jesus casts out demons and it isn’t supposed to have sickness and disease. And so Jesus heals the blind and cleanses the lepers, and it isn’t supposed to have death. And so Jesus raises the dead and ultimately conquers death through his resurrection. So I think that science, like I can both appreciate science but also recognize that there’s this greater reality that is in Jesus that sometimes can take these laws of nature and not really, and not break them in a sense, but actually restore the world to the way it’s supposed to be.
Jana Harmon
57:35 – 57:55
Yes. Yeah. That’s wonderful. He’s giving us a glimpse of heaven. Right? Of when everything will be made whole. And back to your story, just for a second. I’m curious as to what Steve, your brother, thought of your conversion once you came to that place.
Tom Redulius
57:56 – 58:04
Yeah, he was really happy for me. I think probably just about, like, the happiest I’ve ever seen him.
Jana Harmon
58:05 – 58:05
Yeah.
Tom Redulius
58:05 – 58:18
So we had some good, like, letters back and forth, and he finally got me to start going to church. So not too long after that, I did finally actually go to church. Yeah.
Jana Harmon
58:18 – 59:30
Okay. Wonderful. And, yeah, so it sounds like sitting here that you used the word cohesive earlier, that Christianity has a very cohesive worldview. And then it seems to me that you’ve decided that it is the best explanation for what you see and observe in the world and even in yourself and what it provides and what Christ provides. In thinking of those who may be listening, Tom, who are skeptical of the whole Christian enterprise, maybe they have some negative perceptions of Christianity, the Bible. Maybe they believe in science, not God, whatever. And they’re thinking they in a way, in your story, you were at a place of, well, I wish I could believe. I just don’t. It’s not convincing. But they’re open. And at some point, you were open because of your brother, to appease him. If someone is open and they’re willing to do something to appease even themselves, where would you encourage someone to look or to go or a step that they could take towards even a serious consideration of the possibility of God?
Tom Redulius
59:31 – 01:00:38
Yeah, I mean, I think that probably the two things to do are to read the Bible, probably starting with the New Testament, and to go to church to find a church. I think that. Yeah, like, for me, I came in with a lot of preconceived notions about both about Jesus and the Bible and religion as well as religious people and church that I think a lot. A lot of those notions started to fade away once I started to experience it. So I think that really, Christianity is something that you kind of have to try to be a part of. Ultimately, it’s a call not just to this intellectual affirmation, but actually to being a part of this larger family of Christian believers around the world. And so I think you have to kind of try to try that out before you can really know whether or not it’s something you want to be a part of.
Jana Harmon
01:00:39 – 01:01:56
I think that’s excellent. Yeah. Opening the Bible for yourself and seeing who this person is that claims to be Jesus, claims to be God. You gave it a chance and you were convinced. If you had some, some folks, some strong Christians in your story that approached Steve, you had Matt and you had Drew, and especially Matt, I guess, who was bold and willing to talk with Steve about his faith, and of course, your brother, who Steve himself, who was very influential in your journey. I think that’s very risky, again, to go there with your family members. But he was willing because I think the cost is great. Right? It’s of infinite importance. These big questions. How could we as Christians maybe take note of those things in your story? Or how could from even your own experience or wisdom? I mean, you’re sitting in a secular university. I’m sure you experience people from alternative perspectives all the time. So how would you advise us as Christians to engage thoughtfully with people who don’t believe?
Tom Redulius
01:01:57 – 01:03:54
Yeah, I mean, I think probably one of the best things to do is just to invite people to church. I mean, that was, in retrospect, kind of the thing that I would say really got the ball rolling was my brother inviting me to come to church with him. And I know, I think that statistically a very large percentage of people who come to faith, it’s sort of, for them, belonging precedes believing. Being invited into some Christian community precedes the intellectual change of what they believe. And I also know that statistically, like a very large number of people say they would go to church if a friend asked them. I think I’ve heard something like 70% or something, according to one study of people in the UK, like 70% of people said they would go to church if a friend invited them. I think it was also really important, as you say, you know, it’s, it can be very difficult and sort of even risky to invite someone or to, you know, to start talking with these things. I think something that my brother knew about me and that I knew about him was that sort of, no matter what, even if we disagreed, even if we didn’t end up seeing eye to eye, that we would still love each other. And so I think that was something special too, and something special with the rest of our family that even, even though in our extended family maybe doesn’t agree with us on a lot of what we believe about God, there’s never been any doubt in my mind or I think in their minds that we love each other. And so I think there’s something really to be said for that too, is just to, if we love our neighbors and our friends, and our family. Well, I think that can get past even some of the tension that might arise from different theological beliefs.
Jana Harmon
01:03:55 – 01:04:02
Yeah, that is good advice. Is there anything else, Tom, that you’d like to add to your story that you think we might have missed?
Tom Redulius
01:04:02 – 01:04:30
I guess what I’ve described is the process of coming to faith, but obviously it’s been like 15 years now. There’s kind of a lot of the story afterwards. So maybe I’ll just point you and your listeners to my book where I talk at length about my journey of coming to faith, but also of what it’s been like afterwards, sometimes having seasons of really difficult and intense doubt or anxiety, but also getting, you know, to experience God’s faithfulness through it all.
Jana Harmon
01:04:30 – 01:05:28
Again, that’s Chasing Proof and Finding Faith. It’s an excellent, excellent book. I love the way that you’re a great storyteller, by the way, and, and I loved listening to it on, on Audible. But yes, that it’s not an easy journey. Just because someone comes to faith doesn’t mean that the Christian life is without its issues. It oftentimes makes belief even harder. It’s our life. Very challenging. But, but I appreciate that and thank you for commending us to do that. And I would highly recommend reading your book. The fact that you are such a beautiful ambassador at the highest levels of the academy of intellect, just demonstrating that Christianity is reasonable, it’s rational, it makes the best sense of reality, not only out there in the world, but of our own lives. So thank you again for coming.
Tom Redulius
01:05:29 – 01:05:34
Yeah, thanks. Yeah, it’s been really a pleasure to be able to share my story. And so again, thanks for having me.
Jana Harmon
01:05:35 – 01:06:53
Thank you for joining us on eX-skeptic and for listening to Dr. Tom Redulius’s powerful Journey from doubt to belief. If you’d like to know more about Tom’s book Chasing Proof Finding Faith or explore the resources mentioned in today’s episode, you’ll find everything linked in the show notes. If this is your first time listening, welcome. eX-skeptic features over 100 unlikely stories of former skeptics who are now Christians. You can find these stories at exskeptic.org and while you’re there, sign up for our monthly newsletter to stay connected. Are you a curious skeptic wrestling with your own big questions? If you’d like to discuss your thoughts with one of our guests, would love to help make that connection. Just email us at info@exskeptic.org and we’ll get you connected. And your feedback is very important. Let us know your thoughts, suggestions or ideas by leaving a comment, sending us an email, or connecting with us on social media. This podcast is part of the C.S. Lewis Institute podcast network, and if you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, we would appreciate it if you would follow, rate, review and share it with your friends and social network. Your support helps bring these stories to more people who are searching for truth. In the meantime, we hope you will join us next time on eX-skeptic, where we will have another unlikely story of belief.
